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There have long been rumours that coalition forces in Iraq have been mistreatng and even torturing Iraqi prisoners.
Human Rights agencies have suggested that there is a culture of abuse within the military and that these incidents are wide-spread.
I suppose everyone has seen these photos now - the first clear evidence that incidences of abuse are taking place within Iraq. They include graphic images of Iraqi prisoners forced to pose naked, in humiliating and often sexual positions by U.S. troops.
One prisoner was forced to stand on a cardboard box with wires attached to his fingers. He was allegedly told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted.
Today further pictures have emerged which appear to show British soldiers mis-treating prisoners. In one photograph a soldier seems to be unrinating on a captive.
I have access to both BBC World and CNN in my hotel room and noted the significant time lag between the BBC reporting these atrocities and CNN's eventual reportage of the incident.
I think the thing that disgusted me the most when I first saw the pictures was the fact that the soldiers who were committing these acts of torture were clearly enjoying themselves.
Yesterday I was drinking in a cafe. There were a lot of Muslims there and these photos were beiong aired on the TV - Arabic stations are broadcasting these pictures around the clock.
I was surprised by the amount of measured discussion that appeared to be taking place. Obviously I couldn't understand what people were saying. All I know is that I drank my coffee and ate my cake and no one threatened me or used me as a convenient whipping boy for the actions of soldiers from my country and their allies.
A large proportion of the Muslim community is pretty philosophical and peaceful. I've had some very involved discussions about very sensitive issues without resorting to argument or abuse.
All the same, I think the broadcast of these photos has done more harm than anything that has happened in Iraq thus far. I think marks the point where the coalition loses the war. They may eventually stabilize Iraq, but these images are going to stay with the Muslim community for a long time. The next generation of extremists have seen these photos.
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Quote:
backwards7 said:
All the same, I think the broadcast of these photos has done more harm than anything that has happened in Iraq thus far.
i don't think that the photos, or the acts themselves, have outweighed the good accomplished, but... i agree, that its a huge negative tint, and unfortunate in every way.
the acts themselves are horrible, and those responsible should be held accountable immediately.
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with one exception if these guys in the pics are the guys who were raping little girls and torturing iraqis for years, i say good deal. let then see how it feels.
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Another mans crime does not justify yours!
we don't live in an age where "Eye for an Eye" is the law, we're supposed to be civilized, and civilized people don't torture other people!
 Racks be to MisterJLA
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blah blah blah. if someone tortures innocents i have no sympathy for them.....
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whether or not there is any sympathy is not the point. I have no sympathy for them either, but that still doesn't make it right.
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really? i guess we'll have to disagree, i see nothing wrong with punishing someone who hurts innocents. if someone rapes a 12 year old girl infront of her parents like was documented by some of saddams regime, i cant really say i see any torture that would not be right.
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
really? i guess we'll have to disagree
well, at least we agree on one thing, we disagree
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you from europe so its to be expected....
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
you from europe so its to be expected....
by that I hope you mean two different (though not so different as you would expect) cultures, different opinions
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im just generalising but most europeans seem to believe that no matter how horrendous your crime slaps on the wrists are sufficient punishment.....
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Yeah, just generalising and talking bollocks.
And people wonder why Americans have the unfair reputation they have.
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see you just generalized americans. but i suppose its different when you do it?
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that's not what I meant, not at all
I have just too often encountered the mentallity that "you're European, you don't know anything and you are always wrong" If you know what I mean?
Obviously I didn't intend to generalize you into that category
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
really? i guess we'll have to disagree
Apparently, it's not a "European" thing. President Bush disagrees with you too. He's condemned the behavior of the US soldiers towards the Iraqi prisoners.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=544&ncid=693&e=10&u=/ap/20040430/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_prisoners
Quote:
Bush Feels 'Disgust' at Abuse of Iraqis
WASHINGTON - President Bush (news - web sites) has condemned the apparent mistreatment of some Iraqi prisoners, saying, "Their treatment does not reflect the nature of the American people. That's not the way we do things in America. I didn't like it one bit."
He was asked about photos showing Iraqi prisoners naked except for hoods covering their heads, stacked in a human pyramid, one with a slur written in English on his skin. That and other scenes of humiliation have led to criminal charges against six American soldiers. Arab television stations were leading their newscasts on Friday with the photos.
"I share a deep disgust that those prisoners were treated the way they were treated," Bush said.
There currently are 138,000 U.S. troops in Iraq (news - web sites) and 24,900 troops from coalition countries.
Bush made his comments in the White House Rose Garden after a meeting with Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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ohh, oops, didn't see the above posts.....hehe, just disregard my previous post with the exception of me not wanting to generalize anyone.
No, slaps on the wrists are not enough, I just don't see how you can justify torturing prisoners, even though said prisoners tortured innocents.
It ain't justice, it's vigilantism and that's only suitable for comics.
I have a strong sense in what's right and wrong. They should have a fair trial, it's their right.
You could argue that they took away the rights of those innocent people. But as I said earlier. One mans crime does not justify yours
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i wouldnt torcher them cuz i dont know if they did or didnt do anything, im just saying if they did i dont feel sorry for them. if they didnt i feel very bad for them. it shouldnt be done if you dont have proof they did, all im saying is if they did i dont give a rats ass about how bad they feel......
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
really? i guess we'll have to disagree
Apparently, it's not a "European" thing. President Bush disagrees with you too. He's condemned the behavior of the US soldiers towards the Iraqi prisoners.
oh shit. its not a "european" thing. thanks man. i was sure absolutely no americans felt that way, but it seems i was wrong!
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
i wouldnt torcher them cuz i dont know if they did or didnt do anything, im just saying if they did i dont feel sorry for them. if they didnt i feel very bad for them. it shouldnt be done if you dont have proof they did, all im saying is if they did i dont give a rats ass about how bad they feel......
I know exactly how you feel
Racks be to MisterJLA
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i still think steve t is an oversensitive nancy boy tho......
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I didn't generalise about Americans.
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Hehe... He spelled it 'generalise'. I think it makes for a very 'colourful' argument. Nah, I don't think the mindsets are that different between Europeans and Americans. They just have different ways of acting on them. But we're not gonna bring the French into this. I think they're responsible for Euros' bad reputation on this board. British people are too entertaining to stay angry at. 
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Quote:
Originally posted at:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,9454717%255E1702,00.html
DOUBTS arose today over the authenticity of photos apparently showing British troops abusing an Iraqi detainee, after military sources quoted by the BBC said many aspects of the pictures were suspicious.
The British military has launched an investigation into photographs published yesterday in Britain's mass-circulation Daily Mirror newspaper appearing to show troops beating and urinating on an Iraqi prisoner in a camp near Basra in British-controlled southern Iraq.
However, Britain's national broadcaster said unnamed sources close to the Queen's Lancashire Regiment, from whose soldiers the Mirror said it had obtained the photos, believed several aspects of the pictures are suspicious.
The rifle appears to be an SA80 mk 1, which was not issued to soldiers in Iraq. Troops wear berets or hard hats, not the floppy hats as seen in the pictures. The truck in the photo also appears to be a type never used in Iraq.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair yesterday condemned the photos - if genuine - as "completely and utterly unacceptable".
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If that's true, then this is either a VERY bad joke, or an attempt to create distrust on the coalition forces.
most likely the latter
Racks be to MisterJLA
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Quote:
Steve T said:
I didn't generalise about Americans.
Quote:
Steve T said:
Yeah, just generalising and talking bollocks.
And people wonder why Americans have the unfair reputation they have.
you saying that stements like mine are why americans have the reputation they have. go ahead steve flip flop.....
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And that's terrible.
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Hmm, it seems some explanation is necessary, I'll try and keep the number of syllables down.
My point was that Americans have an undeserved reputation as being stupid. It mainly comes from the comments made by people like bsams.
No apparent flip flop there.
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Quote:
On 29 April 2004, 60 Minutes II on CBS reported:
Last month, the U.S. Army announced 17 soldiers in Iraq, including a brigadier general, had been removed from duty after charges of mistreating Iraqi prisoners.
But the details of what happened have been kept secret, until now.
It turns out photographs surfaced showing American soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqis being held at a prison near Baghdad. The Army investigated, and issued a scathing report.
Now, an Army general and her command staff may face the end of long military careers. And six soldiers are facing court martial in Iraq -- and possible prison time.
full article :Abuse Of Iraqi POWs By GIs Probed
Former CIA Bureau Chief Bob Baer said: "We went into Iraq to stop things like this from happening, and indeed, here they are happening under our tutelage."
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of coalition operations in Iraq, admitted that this was not an isolated series of incidents: “I'd like to sit here and say that these are the only prisoner abuse cases that we're aware of, but we know that there have been some other ones since we've been here in Iraq,”
Lemme guess, It's unpatriotic to post these pictures and what's more, the "liberal " media is undermining the troops. Rather, we should relese these pictures 10 years from now yadda yadda yadda...."
Last edited by whomod; 2004-05-05 9:53 AM.
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I thoroughly disapprove of the mistreatment of Iraqi POWs, and I'm not gonna claim those photos were doctored or staged or anything - unless new evidence comes out to say so. But I'm curious as to just what people are trying to say with these photos. I've heard a lot of people making generalizations saying that all our troops are acting in this inhumane manner, which I know for a fact isn't the case. I've also heard that troops are doing this under encouragement from their superiors, which again is total bullshit. What officer would not only go against their own conscience in such a blatant way but throw away their entire career in the process? There's a little thing called the Geneva Accords that places really harsh penalties on soldiers who mistreat POWs. As a result, that sort of thing happens very rarely in dominant Western nations (the US, UK, I suppose France if they were ever in a position to actually take prisoners or be trusted to guard them), and when it has (e.g. Vietnam) it's almost always been attributed to some sort of psychological breakdown among the troops. Although if I kept hearing that nobody back home cared about me or what I was doing in that war, or that politicizers and armchair senators were using what my friends were dying in as a political football to try and keep the incumbent from being reelected, I'd probably be under some psychological strain too. 
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Quote:
whomod said:
Is this person old enough to serve? And why do the troops in these pictures look like they are posing on vacation? They seem detached from what is going on, and that's just not possible. If it's real, then shouldn't they look, I don't know, like they are actually in the process of torturing people? As for the prisoners, they also seem to be too calm. Sure, we can't see their faces, but in the ones where they are standing, especially the one with the guy on the box, they seem to posing. So, either the people in these pics are completely insane, in which case they need to be committed, or the pics are fakes.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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I thought maybe they were fakes at first. I had to wonder who would take pics of their crime!?! According to Limbaugh though, this wasn't a big deal... http://mediamatters.org/items/200405050003 Quote:
Limbaugh on torture of Iraqis: U.S. guards were "having a good time," "blow[ing] some steam off"
Hours before President George W. Bush announced plans to address the Arab world to condemn the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. military personnel at the Abu Ghraib prison, Rush Limbaugh justified the U.S. guards' mistreatment of the Iraqis, stating that they were just "having a good time," and that their actions served as an "emotional release."
As reported by Wonkette.com, Limbaugh's comments can be found on his website. From the May 4 Rush Limbaugh Show, titled "It's Not About Us; This Is War!":
CALLER: It was like a college fraternity prank that stacked up naked men --
LIMBAUGH: Exactly. Exactly my point! This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation and we're going to ruin people's lives over it and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You of heard of need to blow some steam off?
The day before, on his May 3 show, Limbaugh observed that the American troops who mistreated Iraqi prisoners of war were "babes" and that the pictures of the alleged abuse were no worse than "anything you'd see Madonna, or Britney Spears do on stage."
LIMBAUGH: And these American prisoners of war -- have you people noticed who the torturers are? Women! The babes! The babes are meting out the torture.
LIMBAUGH: You know, if you look at -- if you, really, if you look at these pictures, I mean, I don't know if it's just me, but it looks just like anything you'd see Madonna, or Britney Spears do on stage. Maybe I'm -- yeah. And get an NEA grant for something like this. I mean, this is something that you can see on stage at Lincoln Center from an NEA grant, maybe on Sex in the City -- the movie. I mean, I don't -- it's just me.
Is he still on drugs?
Fair play!
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Does anyone actually have respect for Limbaugh after this year? 
FREE SCOTT PETERSON!
"Basically, you've just responded with argumentative opinion to everything I've said. And you respond with speculations, speculating that I'M speculating. "- Wonder Boy
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If you listen to Limbaugh, he is not making light of these photos. He says repeatingly these are not okay but he wants to know why such photos get such outrage when just weeks ago no one in the world made a big deal about American bodies being drag through the streets and mutalated by Iraqis. These photos are only of Iraqis being humilated, there is no clear evidence of torture happening to these people. At least these people are still alive. Limbaugh is concern these photos are being used to damage the reputation of all(the soldiers, the United States in general, etc) except for the few that actually did it.
KNEEL before ZOD!
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One of the British papers had non torture pictures of her at the weekend.
There are people up on charges over them so I don't think there's any doubt over there authenticity.
tehre's supposed to be some doubts over the British ones, but there are no faces shown and the ideentities haven't been revealed.
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Yeah, if they're identifying actual soldiers in the U.S. photos, there's no doubt they're authentic.
The question is, did the soldiers do this on their own or were they put up to it? Howard Stern brought up that point this morning (the father of one of the soldiers is hiring a lawyer because he doubts soldiers can do something like this without their superiors' permission). If they did this without permission, they're pretty stupid to photograph it.
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I'm against it. As Groucho would say.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Originally posted at:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,9454717%255E1702,00.html
DOUBTS arose today over the authenticity of photos apparently showing British troops abusing an Iraqi detainee, after military sources quoted by the BBC said many aspects of the pictures were suspicious.
The British military has launched an investigation into photographs published yesterday in Britain's mass-circulation Daily Mirror newspaper appearing to show troops beating and urinating on an Iraqi prisoner in a camp near Basra in British-controlled southern Iraq.
However, Britain's national broadcaster said unnamed sources close to the Queen's Lancashire Regiment, from whose soldiers the Mirror said it had obtained the photos, believed several aspects of the pictures are suspicious.
The rifle appears to be an SA80 mk 1, which was not issued to soldiers in Iraq. Troops wear berets or hard hats, not the floppy hats as seen in the pictures. The truck in the photo also appears to be a type never used in Iraq.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair yesterday condemned the photos - if genuine - as "completely and utterly unacceptable".
Of course, this refers to the British photos only. There is NO QUESTION WHATSOEVER that the American photos are authentic, and there are several more photos that have been seized from U.S. soldiers coming to light as of today.
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Another question:
If the troops did this on their own, is there a chance they're deliberately trying to sabotage the war effort, by staging these photos themselves in order to make the war, the soldiers, and the U.S. look bad. It could explain the casualness of their posing.
Personally, I think it's a little far-fetched, but then again, we have people in the U.S. who would go to the same extremes for the same purpose.
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