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Quote:
the G-man said:
Yeah, a seventy-year old lady using a high tech suit of flying armor to sneak into a terrorist state and steal a time machine from a superpowered dictator and his army of robot guards is soooooo much more plausible than a seventy year old man posing for a photo in a cape and tights.
Technically Spider-man snuck in and got past the guards. The suits were to allow them to follow him in. Then they activated some blasters to save him.
So its like putting a bulletproof vest on her to take May into a bank under seige and then her using a gun to shoot someone.
Alfred as Batman was supposed to be people honestly thinking he was Batman.
Bow ties are coool.
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I loved Jim Starlin's "Metamorphosis Odyssey in EPIC ILLUSTRATED 1-9. (Issue 3 introduced Dreadstar). I loved THE PRICE graphic novel, (later reprinted in color as DREADSTAR ANNUAL # 1 ) I loved the DREADSTAR Marvel graphic novel.     And I loved the DREADSTAR comic book series, issues 1-5. It maintained such a consistent level of great art and storytelling, even when it went from painted art (the graphic novels) to pen & ink (when it became the DREADSTAR comic series). It was so consistently good. It portrayed war, heroism and tragedy on a grand scale. Leading up to some thing called "Plan M", some monumental undertaking that would save two intergalactic empires from destroying themselves. And then... In issue 6, "Plan M" was revealed. And "Plan M" was... stupid. Trite. Silly. Annoying. Disappointing. Not believable. I kept reading for another 6 issues or so, but I never enjoyed another issue after. The stories were consistently half-hearted and disappointing beyond that point. I asked Jim Starlin once at a show, as politely as I could, what happened at that point (i.e., WTF) and he let on that Marvel was very late paying him, and that affected his enthusiasm for the series. Starlin eventually took the series to First Comics, with issue 27. But the series never regained its early magic. What a let-down. Rarely have I seen a series that started so good take such an incredible dive in quality.
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But the real tragedy began when DREADSTAR was re-introduced in a new costume:  Did he look like a raging sissy in that new costume or WHAT? If he was wearing a codpiece he couldn't have looked more silly. To me Dreadstar looked dressed to perform a ballet in his new costume. He sure didn't look dressed to conquer imperial armies. DREADSTAR covers:
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Dreadstar's costume was DREADFUL ! ! ! !
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 Well, I'm sure he's no Barishnikov, but I'll bet that Dreadstar boy can dance ! I'm SURE that's what Starlin had mind for a future storyline...
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Yeah, a seventy-year old lady using a high tech suit of flying armor to sneak into a terrorist state and steal a time machine from a superpowered dictator and his army of robot guards is soooooo much more plausible than a seventy year old man posing for a photo in a cape and tights.
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Technically Spider-man snuck in and got past the guards. The suits were to allow them to follow him in. Then they activated some blasters to save him.
So its like putting a bulletproof vest on her to take May into a bank under seige and then her using a gun to shoot someone.
Oh...okay...
So....what you're saying is that, not only do you accept the plausibility of a seventy-year old lady using a high tech suit of flying armor to sneak into a terrorist state and steal a time machine from a superpowered dictator and his army of robot guards...but you think that Spiderman would voluntarily put his seventy year old aunt with a heart condition into a hostage situation and give her a gun before taking her in...
Tell me...did you ever actually READ a Spiderman comic book before the JMS run, or is this your first exposure to the character?
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Did anyone read that HULK magazine published in 1980 that Jim Shooter wrote (issue 23), where two gay men tried to rape Bruce Banner at the YMCA?  The letters page a few issues later said Marvel got a huge backlash of angry mail from gay readers because of that story, saying it misrepresented homosexuals. Although I know such things happen. About ten years ago, a friend of mine told me he was homosexually raped by two men at a park in Miami when he was 12 years old.
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There's plenty of gaypists running around in message boards. Thankfully, the authorities brand them with a "G-" before their name so the other posters know not to get too close.
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Does that mean that G-man is really just... "man?"
Reveling in the knowledge that Sammitch will never interrupt my nookie ever again.
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He named himself after the thing he loves the most. Well, the second thing, since the username "penis" was taken.
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How long before someone registers G-Penis as an alt?
Thing is- I can’t spell or type. I spell so badly my spell check doesn’t even know what I was trying to spell. And I have five Eisners HAHAHAHHA!!
-Brian Michael Bendis
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Kirby's Fourth World series (1970-1972) was leading toward a "Final Battle" in the fire pits of Apokalips (Armagetto) where "father fights son" (Orion vs Darkseid).    ( click on image to see all issues, enlarged covers, and interior pages for each series) Kirby wanted to bring the saga to a clear and final end, but the titles NEW GODS and FOREVER PEOPLE (in 1972) were cancelled by DC management before Kirby could end it. And MR MIRACLE (after issue 9) although not cancelled, was pushed in a completely different non-Fourth-World direction. But oddly enough, these titles ( NEW GODS and MISTER MIRACLE) were revived just months after Kirby left DC in early 1976. It can certainly be speculated that these titles were cancelled to keep Kirby from killing his own characters. And that these titles were purposefully revived as soon as Kirby was gone from DC, so DC could have other creators continue the two series (NEW GODS and MISTER MIRACLE) in a way that kept marketable characters from being killed off, instead of in the way Kirby had wanted to conclusively finish them off in the series. If that's the case, it's a WTF and a half !
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
It can certainly be speculated that these titles were cancelled to keep Kirby from killing his own characters.
And that these titles were purposefully revived as soon as Kirby was gone from DC, so DC could have other creators continue the two series (NEW GODS and MISTER MIRACLE) in a way that kept marketable characters from being killed off, instead of in the way Kirby had wanted to conclusively finish them off in the series.
It's debatable the extent to which the New Gods/Fourth World characters can be described as "marketable."
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I would be more inclined to think it a coincidence. Several years passed between the books' cancellation and return. Furthermore, at the time of the return, DC was in the midst of their "explosion" where they were reviving old titles left and right, not just Kirby ones.
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Jim Jackson said:
It's debatable the extent to which the New Gods/Fourth World characters can be described as "marketable." Well, Jim, as far as marketability, I'll grant you, they're not a huge franchise for DC. But Darkseid and the other New Gods characters appear frequently in DC's books, and have been in a number of the DC cartoons, such as Superman and Super Friends. Darkseid is comparable to being DC's equivalent of Dr Doom in popularity as a villain. G-man said:
I would be more inclined to think it a coincidence. Several years passed between the books' cancellation and return. Furthermore, at the time of the return, DC was in the midst of their "explosion" where they were reviving old titles left and right, not just Kirby ones. Regarding the revival of many old DC titles in the 1976-1978 period, there were far more new titles being produced ( KONG, STALKER, BLITZKRIEG, MANBAT, STEEL, DYNAMIC CLASSICS, WARLORD, BEOWULF, JUSTICE INC, THE SHADOW, GHOST CASTLE, KOBRA, SECRETS OF HAUNTED HOUSE, JONAH HEX...) But few former DC titles I can think of that were revived. Aside from NEW GODS and MISTER MIRACLE, the only other I can think of is SHOWCASE. SHAZAM was re-launched in 1973, and had been a great disappointment for DC. It was cancelled in 1978 during the "DC Implosion", immediately after it had a big change in story approach. (As were NEW GODS and MISTER MIRACLE, also cancelled during the Implosion) Kirby's last published book for DC, KAMANDI 40, was dated April 1976. The first NEW GODS revival was the same month he left DC !  ( FIRST ISSUE SPECIAL 13, April 1976, "Return of the New Gods" by Dennis O'Neil and Mike Vosberg). Presumably, it sold pretty well, since... Their revival in NEW GODS 12 is cover dated July 1977. ( cover linked in my above post)The MISTER MIRACLE revival, with issue 19, is cover dated September 1977. ( Again, cover linked in my above post. Great work by Englehart/Rogers, by the way) If these books were cancelled due to low sales, as DC management gave as the reason (NEW GODS cancelled in Nov 1972, and MISTER MIRACLE in March 1974, the latter cancelled barely three years before the series was revived) then the sudden confidence of DC in a new series doesn't make sense, so soon after cancellation. It's my conspiracy theory, and I'm stickin' to it !
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Quote:
the G-man said:
So....what you're saying is that, not only do you accept the plausibility of a seventy-year old lady using a high tech suit of flying armor to sneak into a terrorist state and steal a time machine from a superpowered dictator and his army of robot guards...but you think that Spiderman would voluntarily put his seventy year old aunt with a heart condition into a hostage situation and give her a gun before taking her in...
Its a comic. Anything sounds ridiculous if you expand it enough.
Such as:
Billionaire inventor with a heart condition creates a suit of armor that he uses to fight crime so that the suit will keep hisheart condition steady.
He then builds a skyscraper with all sorts of state of the art equipment but can't afford to rebuild a big house in the suburbs or give paychecks to his team mates.
He and the WWII hero, who was frozen in a block of ice, form a team made up of a woman who was altered by a cult, a 100 year old mutant with metal on his bones, a geek who was bitten by a radioactive spider, and a guy with unbreakable skin.
They form this team because the world needs them. The "world" in this case is New York which happens to be the center of every super hero/villain plot in the universe. And all these heroes live in this one city yet don't run into each other every single issue despite the fact that there are big attention-drawing explosions and fights going on.
Oh, and the next stage in human evolution produces a race of people who all have different powers.
Oh, and this 70 year old woman was replaced by a look alike actress who somehow knew Peter was spider-man.
Oh, and this 70 year old woman was engagedto Doctor Octopus.
Oh, and a scientific genius who is always hard up for cash can invent webbing as strong as steel cables, spider-tracers that can be tuned in with his spider-sense and other gadgets but never once thinks of inventing something to patent. Instead he just takes pictures of himself jumping around.
So, yes. Given all that, I didn't bat an eye at her being able to moderately use a weapon suit. Any 70 year old can fire a gun.
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I've heard the New Gods theory before, and it makes sense. Not the first time (and certainly not the last time) that publishers fucked with a creator's plan.
On that line of thought. My Peter David WTF list:
Marvel wanted Hulk to be Savage again. David wanted to make the title into a suspense type book. Marvel removed him from Hulk after 12 years and the resulting Savage Hulk stories lead to the titles' cancellation after about 6 months.
Young Justice is cancelled to turn it into a carbon copy of every other team/Johns book out there. The reason was that they wanted to match it more to the new animated series.
Bow ties are coool.
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The Geoff Johns "smile panel." In which a character responds by smiling and saying (generally) a one word response.
Artists who can't get their work out on time. I like Hitch's work, but 2-4 months is a little silly. Especially since Ed Bagley does great work on Ultimate Spider-man and those issues are sometimes bi-weekly.
Only 5 years after ending crossovers because people complained about them taking over titles for a month, DC does a stryline that takes over every title for a year and involves six 4 issuemini-series and a 52 issue series that needs to be read to understand what's going on in current titles.
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
It's debatable the extent to which the New Gods/Fourth World characters can be described as "marketable."
Well, Jim, as far as marketability, I'll grant you, they're not a huge franchise for DC.
But Darkseid and the other New Gods characters appear frequently in DC's books, and have been in a number of the DC cartoons, such as Superman and Super Friends.
Darkseid is comparable to being DC's equivalent of Dr Doom in popularity as a villain.
I'm not convinced, though, that you could say that about these characters in 1975-76.
I will say this: It stands to reason that DC circa 1975 wouldn't have wanted Kirby to kill off his entire universe of characters for whatever reason. I can see TPTB sitting there in 1975/76 looking at something like DOOM PATROL, which was gaining popularity in a variety of reprint series that DC had done, and them saying, "Damn, we should never have let Drake kill them off. We won't make the mistake again of letting a creative type kill off an entire group of charcters they created for us."
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But this is comic books we are talking about. The fact that anyone, Drake, Kirby, whomever, killed off a character previously doesn't mean they can't come back.
And its not as if DC was a slave to continuity in the 70s either.
Look at all these WTF moments that were retconned or forgotten during that decade.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
But this is comic books we are talking about. The fact that anyone, Drake, Kirby, whomever, killed off a character previously doesn't mean they can't come back.
And its not as if DC was a slave to continuity in the 70s either.
Look at all these WTF moments that were retconned or forgotten during that decade.
That's actually a very good point.
When it comes to major events in comic books, nothing is set in stone.
Anything can be retconned away.
The death of Alfred in the Infantino DETECTIVE issues. (Can you say: "The inside story of the Outsider" ?)
The death of Phoenix. (I stopped caring around X-MEN 175, with the whole Madeline Pryor thing)
The death of the Green Goblin. (They just replaced him with a new Hobgoblin character. And then brought back Norman Osborn too ! )
The death of Robin. (Just how many Robin characters have they replaced him with now? )
And one of the greatest blasphemies for me (after such a perfect Goodwin/Simonson run in DETECTIVE 437-443) was they brought back Manhunter! (In SECRET SOCIETY OF SUPERVILLAINS )
There was a fan-press article out in 1989 in the COMICS JOURNAL, during the whole BATMAN: "A Death in the Family" 4-issue storyline (by Jim Starlin, Jim Aparo and Mike DeCarlo), that talked about how, before the fourth issue was even on the stands, DC management had already prepared to introduce a new Robin to replace the recently murdered Jason Todd.
Starlin was quoted as being really pissed off about it. That he felt like he had contributed something to the whole Batman mythology. And then DC immediately rendered it meaningless by instantly whipping out a new Robin.
He appealed to a DC executive, who told Starlin: "We've got to. His picture's on a million lunch boxes." Or words to that effect. Gotta keep that franchise going. And plausibility be damned !
I guess that's part of the fun of this topic: We all know none of it is written in stone. But it's funny as hell, the implausible contortions Marvel and DC put their universes through, to keep those franchises going.
I've been re-reading my Marvel CONAN comic book run lately. In a powerful war story, Conan's red-bearded mercenary friend Fafnir loses his arm in combat and then dies pointlessly in issues 19 and 20. Then another 100 issues later, another writer brings him back with the sword and sorcery equivalent of a bionic arm ! I mean, come on...
And I guess whether Aunt May's time travel in an Iron Man suit is any more plausible than an alternate universe crazy-as-fuck Superboy, whether an O'Neil/Adams Batman is any more "realistic" than a Frank Miller Batman, or than a Loeb/Lee Batman, or whatever, is all in the eye of the beholder.
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I recall a TWO GUN KID:SUNSET RIDERS story that was drawn like it was another issue of SPAWN or WILDCATS. Pseudo-Image art in overdrive, completely inappropriate to the story being told.  ( Click on images to see enlarged covers, other issues of series, and interior pages ) And a more recent re-vamp of a western hero, Zimmerman scripting/gaying up RAWHIDE KID, in the 2003 series. I was amazed to see John Severin drew the thing. That's not something I want to see. Especially in a long-established western hero.  A very good western series was the 1985 RAWHIDE KID four-issue series, with humor and sympathy focusing on the perils of an aging western hero. By Bill Mantlo and Herb Trimpe.  And best of all, Doug Wildey's outstanding "Rio" series in ECLIPSE MONTHLY (issues 1, 2, 5, 9 and 10), later collected in a beautiful RIO Graphic Novel. With a few sequels.  Aside from other western stories in comics, Wildey is best known as the storyboard artist for the early 60's Johnny Quest cartoon series.
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I thought this cover from Byrne's 1983-1985 ALPHA FLIGHT run (issue 5) was pretty funny. Look at the "PUCK" logo in the bottom right of the cover:  (Click image to enlarge)I've never seen a character's name-logo with body hair before !
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Another interesting story is in a one-shot anthology issue of ALIEN ECOUNTERS # 1 by Fantaco, out in 1981 (not to be confused with the later Eclipse series of ALIEN ENCOUNTERS). "Surviving Son" is Mike Zeck's own version of the origin of Superman, with a father and mother who respectfully answer to the names of Lyk-Ter and Klyt-Sor. Other great work in this issue includes early stories by Steve Bissette, Howard Cruse, Tom Yeates, Fred Hembeck, Rudy Nebres, Rich Larson, and a beautiful painted cover by George Chastain.
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
Did anyone read that HULK magazine published in 1980 that Jim Shooter wrote (issue 23), where two gay men tried to rape Bruce Banner at the YMCA?
The letters page a few issues later said Marvel got a huge backlash of angry mail from gay readers because of that story, saying it misrepresented homosexuals.
Although I know such things happen. About ten years ago, a friend of mine told me he was homosexually raped by two men at a park in Miami when he was 12 years old.
lol!
I remember having that mag as a kid - the references went over my head!
I picked up the magazine recently - that was funny, a real sordid little story.
I was reading the letters page and there was outrade at John Burne doing something racist - I didn't know he was mental back then!
I liked the way Jim Shooter wrote unter the name of James Shooter for these 'adult' magazines - he sounds so grown up!
Me No Rikey Rob, he's a banana queer!
I shit on Hogan!
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Quote:
ROY BATTY said:I was reading the letters page and there was outrade at John Byrne doing something racist - I didn't know he was mental back then!
I remember that, at about the same time, Frank Miller was getting some flack in Daredevil for having a fair number of the street thugs in the book be black. Readers were complaining in the lettercols that it was racist.
The editor wrote back: right or wrong, there are black people who are criminals, just as there are white people who are criminals. To show only white criminals would be no less racist.
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ROY BATTY said:
I was reading the letters page [in HULK magazine # 23] and there was outrage at John Byrne doing something racist - I didn't know he was mental back then!
I liked the way Jim Shooter wrote unter the name of James Shooter for these 'adult' magazines - he sounds so grown up! John Byrne had a long interview about his career in THE COMICS JOURNAL # 57, out in 1980, and he talked about being uncomfortable drawing Colleen wing in the IRON FIST title after writer Claremont said he was writing the character as a lesbian. Byrne also let on that in college, he did a regular one-page comic strip titled "Gay Guy" . Both of these remarks, predictably, pissed off gay readers.
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Quote:
the G-man selectively said:
I remember that...black people...are criminals
Bow ties are coool.
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Anyone here read the story where Lois Lane turned black (issue 106) ?  They say: "Once you go black, you'll never go back."But Lois did.
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
Anyone here read the story where Lois Lane turned black (issue 106) ?
Quote:
Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Heh, notice the infamous black Lois Lane from the Silver Age [in Infinite Crisis No. 5]... I can't believe DC would reference that .
Quote:
the G-man said:
I thought it was the Indian or Pakistani Lois from the "Superman Secret Identity" mini that Busiek wrote. Seriously.
Quote:
Ray Adler said:
no, she's got a 70's look and is bewildered. the seret identity one had longer hair and was not as bewildered.
Quote:
the G-man said:
Yeah, but the black Lois Lane from the 70s had a big, Pam Grier-style Afro.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
Yeah, but the black Lois Lane from the 70s had a big, Pam Grier-style Afro.
I know. But this might be a more modernized redesign to not date the black lois look or make it seem too racist.
Quote:
the G-man said:
I'm still bettings its the Indian/Pakastani "Secret ID" Lois. Busiek recently said he was going to do "a sequel, of sorts" to that story and he's writing Superman "one year later." So it would make sense to have those characters be part of the crisis imagery
Wow.
So the black chick Lois made a few more appearances 30-plus years later, in SUPERMAN SECRET IDENTITY and INFINITE CRISIS.
Apparently it wasn't so beyond the pale as to be ret-conned away. Although maybe sanitized and updated for political correctness.
But there's still no getting around it: They turned Lois Lane into a black chick, to do a "mod" (circa 1971) exploration of racial issues.
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Joined: Sep 2001
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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Anyone else here read this WHAT IF issue...  ...starring a Fantastic Foursome made up of: Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Sol Brodsky and Flo Steinberg? Written and pencilled by Jack Kirby, inked by Mike Royer. A high plateau of silliness indeed.
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Joined: Sep 2001
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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Another original interpretation: 
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Joined: Sep 2001
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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Has anyone else read this one? Despite some very nice Mike McKone painted art, this 2-issue series is just... goofy. A gorgeous female military fighting robot, that charges its batteries by... having sex with any nearby man when its batteries run low? What kind of wacked-out fanboy wet dream is that ?
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Joined: Sep 2001
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WHOA !!!! - HANSI THE GIRL WHO LOVED THE SWASTIKA
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Joined: Sep 2001
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I found a site where you can read the entire HANSI comic story online: Along with several others of the Spire comics line. It was actually much tamer than I expected. I got a big kick out of this guy's review of the book: Which is wilder than the story itself.
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Joined: Sep 2001
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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Another of my favorites is from MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 60, by Ralph Macchio and Mark Gruenwald, with gorgeous art by George Perez and Gene Day.  The story teams the Thing up with the Impossible Man. In a hilarious scene, the Thing is taking a shower, and Impossible Man walks in on him. The camera angles perfectly re-enact the shower scene from Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho movie! Great stuff. In a party scene, George Perez and several other Marvel staffers appear on-camera. And there's plenty more twists beyond this. This was at the tail end of Gruenwald/Macchio's "Pegasus Project" epic, in MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 53-58, so this was a fun bit of comedy relief to end that part of their run with.
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1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
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1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
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 "Infinite Crisis." Not the lame story, or the bloated price of it all, but the name "Infinite Crisis." Crisis on Infinite Earths is a fine name that plays on older stories, but "Infinite Crisis" is the title used for 20 years as a spoof of Crisis. Its a terrible name and is one of the biggest WTF in comics.
Bow ties are coool.
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
I found a site where you can read the entire HANSI comic story online:
Two observations:
1. The story begins in approximately 1938, but ends sometime in the hippie era, which began approximately 1967. Therefore, the story takes place over approximately forty years. Despite that, Hansi stays pretty much the same age. Must be those "aryan genes."
2. I don't know who did the art but it looks famiilar. I think Vince Colletta or Frank McLaughlin, both of whom worked for DC regularly during that era, inked it.
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