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Shazamgrrl said:
Nope. Mary & Junior came years before Superboy and Girl. Junior was created in 1941 and Mary in 1942. Superboy first saw publication in 1945, and Supergirl in 1954.
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And it's really weird that DC didn't go after Fawcett over Captain Marvel 'til Cap started out-selling Supes. DC started amping Supes' powers up because of Cap's popularity.:p This is true. DC sued Fawcett and drove Fawcett out of business with litigation after several years in 1953. And then, ironically, DC bought the rights to the Marvel Family characters, and brought them back in DC's new SHAZAM series in 1973, and added the Shazam universe to DC's continuity as "Earth S". I've always thought of MIRACLEMAN as a WTF/through-a-mirror-darkly version of the Shazam characters. Kid Miracleman is a darker version of Black Adam, who slaughters whole cities for his sadistic pleasure (MIRACLEMAN issues 2, 3, and 14-15).     Emil Gargunza is a darker retread of Dr Sivana, who (in the Miracleman version) was sexually raped as a child, then killed his rapist and took over the rapist's crime operation (MIRACLEMAN 5).  Miraclewoman is a darker version of Mary Marvel, who was molested by her creator Emil Gargunza (by another name Dr Sivana), and as I recall Gargunza sexually molested Miracleman and Kid Miracleman too. And then the crowning achievement of Moore's MIRACLEMAN run, incest between Miracleman and Miraclewoman in issue 16, because in their superhuman utopia, they deem themselves above being human, and thus above human laws of morality. Which basically equates to Captain Marvel shacking Mary Marvel.  I enjoyed the first 7 issues by Moore immensely, some of the best written stories in comics history. Before Moore went off the deep end with increasing moroseness and shock value. --------------------  "This Man, This Wonder Boy..."
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Here's a WTF for you. The Batman Strikes! #3. In the very first panel, Alfred is singing "Hey Ya."   Okay, who on the editorial staff decided that "Ultimate" Alfred was a hip-hop fan?
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Whoops. That last post was me. But I think we share the same feeling about this. What the hell are they smoking?
Bringing a little order to message boards everywhere!
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November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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Please get your alternate personalities straight, people.
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Quote:
Chris Oakley said:
Here's a WTF for you.
The Batman Strikes! #3. In the very first panel, Alfred is singing "Hey Ya."
Okay, who on the editorial staff decided that "Ultimate" Alfred was a hip-hop fan?
If Batman ever gets an Ultimate-style title, Alfred would become Andre 3000.
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The Miracleman / Miraclewoman incest thing is a bit disturbing, isn't it? Quote:
Steve T said:
Quote:
King Snarf said:
Yes. And he referred to her as "luv" and every guy as "mate". Very disconcerting.
And not a single use of "sheila" or "rack off"
Cor blimey, cobber.
I have to say that I have thought "WTF?" for some of Captain Boomerang's dialogue over the years, and especially in Ostrander's Suicide Squad. Australians do tend to pepper their dialogue with Australian colloquialisms, but its not as constant as Boomerang's speech. Sometimes I just didn't understand him at all.
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I know absolutely nothing about SUICIDE SQUAD. I know it was published by DC in the late-80's/early-90's, in the same period as JUSTICE LEAGUE/JUSTICE LEAGUE INTERNATIONAL and JUSTICE LEAGUE EUROPE ( the JLI and JLE series I love and highly recommend, as I said several pages back in the topic. WTF in a very good way ! ) Any issues you'd recommend to sample SUICIDE SQUAD ?   Also, I'm amazed how little anyone has to say about MIRACLEMAN. Another aspect of MIRACLEMAN that's WTF is that it was originally MARVELMAN when it appeared one chapter per month in WARRIOR magazine in Britain, from 1981-1982, in the first 15 or so issues (V FOR VENDETTA was also serialized in these same issues of WARRIOR). When Eclipse Comics first announced that MARVELMAN would be published in the U.S. in 1985, Marvel threatened legal action if it was published as MARVELMAN. Hence the name change to MIRACLEMAN. I loved Alan Moore's editorial in the first issue, that if in a few years another company came along called Miracle Comics and sued over the name MIRACLEMAN, they'd continue publishing it as MACKERALMAN, if it came to that. The first 6 MIRACLEMAN issues reprint the serialized stories from WARRIOR (printed for the first time in color). Both the Marvelman and V For Vendetta series were abruptly abandoned by Moore, mid-story, before their conclusion, when Alan Moore was offered a job in 1983 writing SWAMP THING for DC. And both series (Marvelman and V For Vendetta) were later concluded when reprinted in the U.S., with new material added to conclude each series. The most recent MIRACLEMAN fiasco, between the two men who together own the MIRACLEMAN character and publishing rights (Todd McFarlane and Neil Gaiman) is another giant WTF. I wonder if we'll ever get past that Gaiman/McFarlane acrimony, and see new trades of these stories. 
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Quote:
Dave the Wonder Boy said:
I know absolutely nothing about SUICIDE SQUAD. I know it was published by DC in the late-80's/early-90's, in the same period as JUSTICE LEAGUE/JUSTICE LEAGUE INTERNATIONAL and JUSTICE LEAGUE EUROPE (the latter series which I love and highly recommend, as I said several pages back in the topic. WTF in a very good way ! )
Any issues you'd recommend to sample SUICIDE SQUAD ?
The Ostrander series was a spin off from Legends.Its a villain book: a secret government program allows villains to be released from jail if they successfully complete a mission. To ensure they don't run away mid-job, they have explosive bracelets fitted to their wrists.
The series notable for the most profound and subtle character change in the lead protagonist, Amanda Waller, as the issues progress.
It ultimately became an espionage book, dropping all costumes for about 12 issues, and it finally died at about issue 58 or 60.
Great book, ceertainly ahead of its time when you read and compare contemporary titles like Queen & Country and The Losers.
Quote:
Also, I'm amazed how little anyone has to say about MIRACLEMAN.
Another aspect of MIRACLEMAN that's WTF is that it was originally MARVELMAN when it appeared one chapter per month in WARRIOR magazine in Britain, from 1981-1982, in the first 15 or so issues (V FOR VENDETTA was also serialized in WARRIOR).
When Eclipse Comics first announced that MARVELMAN would be published in the U.S. in 1985, Marvel threatened legal action if it was published as MARVELMAN. Hence the name change to MIRACLEMAN.
I loved Alan Moore's editorial in the first issue, that if in a few years a company came along called Miracle Comics and sued over the name Miracleman, they'd continue publishing it as MACKERALMAN, if it came to that.
The first 6 MIRACLEMAN issues reprint the serialized stories from WARRIOR (printed for the first time in color).
Both the Marvelman and V For Vendetta series were abruptly abandoned by Moore, mid-story, before their conclusion, when Alan Moore was offered a job in 1983 writing SWAMP THING for DC.
And both series (Marvelman and V For Vendetta) were later concluded when reprinted in the U.S., with new material to conclude the series.
The most recent MIRACLEMAN fiasco, between the two men who together own the MIRACLEMAN character and publishing rights (Todd McFarlane and Neil Gaiman) is another giant WTF.
I wonder if we'll ever get past that acrimony and see new trades of these stories. 
Eventually someone will win, or do a deal - its too valuable a property to leave lying about.
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So far, here's my only comment about Miracleman: It was originally created and published because the reprints of Shazam that the company published way back when dried up due to *ahem* legal reasons. So Miracleman was created as a Shazam clone. Alan Moore took an obscure (by that time) character and brought new life to him.
This is from a book called "Kimota! The Miracleman Companion", published by TwoMorrows Publishing. Great book.
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Quote:
Joe Mama said:
This is from a book called "Kimota! The Miracleman Companion", published by TwoMorrows Publishing. Great book.
Yes, I own it ! Good book.
Thanks also for your overview of SUICIDE SQUAD, Dave. It's on my list of books to check out (actually, it was on my list several years ago, but I forgot about it, back then.)
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You'd also asked for a recommendation: I'd suggest simply starting at issue 1. I thought a cross over called The Janus Directive was really well done, but it requires you to read Checkmate! and Firestorm to follow what is happening. The very dramatic issue with Rick Flagg disposing of an old nuclear weapon in Qurac will probably appeal to you, Dave, because it has a flashback to the original WW2 Suicide Squad. I've read this issue many times. Its got an extremely unexpected twist in it.
There is some lighthearted entertainment in it: for about 6 months or so, someone is throwing cream pies at characters, and we don't know who. Lois Lane, Amanda Waller, Captain Boomerang, and others all get a cream pie in the face. Lois Lane's is probably the funniest.
Getting back to WTFs..... Giffen's JLI/JLE had a number. Kooey Kooey Kooey, the JL Antarctica and the killer penguins, G'nort.....
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Dave said:
Getting back to WTFs..... Giffen's JLI/JLE had a number. Kooey Kooey Kooey, the JL Antarctica and the killer penguins, G'nort..... I agree with your picks, and displayed a number of the issues you listed in my post at the top of page 5 of the topic. I like G'nort best in the JLI "Justice League Antarctica" annual you list, and in JLI 51:  Where the JLI guys reluctantly go out on the town with G'nort, and the results are predictably disastrous. Great stuff. And thanks again for the SUICIDE SQUAD recommendations.
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Heh heh, #36 and the Scarlet Skier makes me chuckle just to think about. Quote:
Dave said
I have to say that I have thought "WTF?" for some of Captain Boomerang's dialogue over the years, and especially in Ostrander's Suicide Squad. Australians do tend to pepper their dialogue with Australian colloquialisms, but its not as constant as Boomerang's speech. Sometimes I just didn't understand him at all.
Bless em the American's try and do our dialogue. I love the way British people always call women "mum". I never called anyone mum other than my mother!
And we all dress the same as we did during WW2.
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Quote:
Dave the Wonder Boy said:
The most recent MIRACLEMAN fiasco, between the two men who together own the MIRACLEMAN character and publishing rights (Todd McFarlane and Neil Gaiman) is another giant WTF.
I wonder if we'll ever get past that Gaiman/McFarlane acrimony, and see new trades of these stories.
Apparently, the rights issue has finally been settled and Gaiman has the rights to the character again. I posted this in the "Miracleman" thread months ago, but here's the link to the story again:
Miracleman
It may be a while before the stories are back in print, however.
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I just read that the greatest WTF writer of all time, Bob Haney has died.
Haney, creator of Metamorpho and the Teen Titans, is also the writer responsible for some of my personal favorite "WTF"s over the years:
The Super-sons (teenaged sons of Superman and Batman who were later revealed to be computer simulations come to life);
Thomas Wayne, Jr, Batman's retarded brother, who was later possessed by Deadman;
The time that Atom brought a brain dead Batman back to life by jumping around in his brain;
The issue of Brave and Bold where terrorists decided the most efficient way to kill Batman would be to kidnap artist Jim Aparo, and force him draw Batman's death.
Seriously, I goof on these stories, but I always had a soft spot for them, and for Haney.
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Snapman said:Dave the Wonder Boy said:The most recent MIRACLEMAN fiasco, between the two men who together own the MIRACLEMAN character and publishing rights (Todd McFarlane and Neil Gaiman) is another giant WTF. . I wonder if we'll ever get past that Gaiman/McFarlane acrimony, and see new trades of these stories. . Apparently, the rights issue has finally been settled and Gaiman has the rights to the character again. I posted this in the "Miracleman" thread months ago, but here's the link to the story again: . Miracleman. It may be a while before the stories are back in print, however. Yeah, Snapman, thanks for linking your prior topic. Every time I hear they've reached a compromise, Todd McFarlane tosses another wrench in the machine. I mean geez, if they want to haggle about new material, okay. But how hard is it for them to negotiate a re-release of the old stories in trades or hardcovers, and split the royalties 50/50 or 60/40 or whatever, and let a new generation of readers (and old ones) enjoy these books in collected form. McFarlane and Gaiman are both rich, so the money for reprints of this relatively obscure series are meaningless to either of them, relative to each's other creator-owned properties. Another Shazam-related WTF that I really enjoyed was the "SHAZAM 1953 ANNUAL" facsimile edition, where DC asked "what if there'd been a 1953 SHAZAM ANNUAL?" and produced one as if it was a reproduction of one that had really been published, back in the day:  DC has done a number of similar reproductions, many of actual books, and many of books that never previously existed. G-Man, I'm with you in having an enduring affection for Bob Haney's work. Particularly BRAVE AND THE BOLD 79-130, when I was most eagerly picking up these issues in 1972-1976, the ones before 104 as back issues. And the "Super-sons" in WORLD'S FINEST (I began reading with issues 211-235). I'd forgotten about Haney's run with The Unknown Soldier series in STAR SPANGLED WAR, beginning in issue 150, with art by Joe Kubert. Also very enjoyable. Thanks to Grimm for posting Mr. Haney's obituary:
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Chris Oakley said:Here's a WTF for you. The Batman Strikes! #3. In the very first panel, Alfred is singing "Hey Ya." Okay, who on the editorial staff decided that "Ultimate" Alfred was a hip-hop fan?  Among many WTF's in Miller's THE DARK KNIGHT STRIKES AGAIN, in issue 1, one of the "Sons of the Batman" deliberately and unnecessarily kills a cop. And for this ultimate transgression, Robin punishes him by assigning him to... "latrine duty" ? A bit disproportionately mild for the crime, I'd say.
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Yeah, to me that was the biggest example of Miller just not "getting" the material he was writing.
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Quote:
Miraclewoman is a darker version of Mary Marvel, who was molested by her creator Emil Gargunza (by another name Dr Sivana), and as I recall Gargunza sexually molested Miracleman and Kid Miracleman too.
And then the crowning achievement of Moore's MIRACLEMAN run, incest between Miracleman and Miraclewoman in issue 16, because in their superhuman utopia, they deem themselves above being human, and thus above human laws of morality.
Which basically equates to Captain Marvel shacking Mary Marvel
Actually, in MM, he and and Miraclewoman were NOT brother and sister, so there was no incest.
However, did you ever read the novel "Superfolks"?
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Manga WTF: What's the deal with Kikyo and Koga from InuYasha? They both seem to believe "I alone can defeat Naraku." Gimme a break!
Last edited by ShazamGrrl1; 2004-12-21 5:29 AM.
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Do Golden Age stories count for WTF moments? I'm reading Shazam Archives Volume 1 and there's a couple of WTF moments right there.
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Here's one that I'm not sure has been mentioned. The New Titans #100. I was sooo looking forward to this 'cause Nightwing and Starfire were finally getting married. But much like a marriage on Monday Night Raw, there was a run-in to spoil things! Evil Lesbian Fetish Demon Raven showed up with Evil Changeling and some other Evil folks. And the worst part is that you'd think she'd attack when the priest says, "If anyone objects, let them speak now, or forever hold their peace", but no! Then Evil Raven makes out with Starfire and other stupid crap happens.
Knutreturns said: Spoken like the true Greatest RDCW Champ!
All hail King Snarf!
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Quote:
Snapman said:
Do Golden Age stories count for WTF moments? I'm reading Shazam Archives Volume 1 and there's a couple of WTF moments right there.
Sure, Snapman. No comic, manga or creator is safe from WTF moments, so go for it! 
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I was just reading this topic... Why Atom and Elongated Man suck assHERE...and the comparison of Elongated Man to Plastic Man reminded me of this cover:  ( Click on image to enlarge )I love the spaghetti-mess of elongated-power heroes around Superman. Depending on the creative team, I love both Atom and Elongated Man. Elongated Man in particular I've enjoyed by just about every creative team that has handled the character, at least up to 1992 or so. By Fox, Broome and Infantino in FLASH and DETECTIVE COMICS. And by Sekowsky in JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA in the 60's, then by Wein, Bates, Conway, Giordano, Dillin, Novick and Garcia-Lopez in the 70's. And by Conway, Perez and others in the 80's, Among the best the Giffen, DeMatteis, Maguire, Sears and Hughes runs of JUSTICE LEAGUE/JLI and JLE from 1987-1992. Likewise, ATOM was great under Gil Kane in the 60's. And as part of JLA in the 60's, 70's and 80's. Then especially in the SWORD OF THE ATOM miniseries in 1983, and the continuation of that storyline in subsequent annuals. There was definitely some major sex going on in those issues. And Gil Kane had a rather eye-catching new art style that debuted around the same time as that new SWORD OF THE ATOM miniseries.
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This cover from ADVENTURE COMICS 294 in 1962, gives us... Bizarro JFK !  ( Click on image to enlarge )
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:Bizarro JFK !
I wonder if Bizarro JFK shot Bizarro Lee Harvey Oswald?
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
ATOM was great under Gil Kane in the 60's. And as part of JLA in the 60's, 70's and 80's.
I thought one of the few good points of Miller's terrible DK sequel was his portrayal of the Atom.
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the G-man said:Wonder Boy said:Bizarro JFK ! I wonder if Bizarro JFK shot Bizarro Lee Harvey Oswald? Bizarro President Lee Harvey Oswald ?!? Me am like ! Me also think a Marvel/DC crossover where green verbally challenged Hulk visit Bizarro Planet would am be great story. Damn it's hard to talk like that for long ! I felt a number of the JLA characters Miller handled in DARK KNIGHT STRIKES AGAIN were wonderfully their old 70's/80's selves again, including the Atom appearance you mentioned. I love that line Miller gave the Flash: "Kids. They don't know the difference between OLD and CLASSIC. "I like Miller's rejection of the newer versions of the JLA characters, and his use of Hal Jordan and the rest, using the characters in a pre-CRISIS form he seems to prefer over those in the last 20 years or so of continuity. Which is something of a WTF for continuity wonks, but I prefer the old characters, so it works for me.
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Here's an all-time favorite of mine.
There's a scene from Amazing Spider-Man #76 (one of Stan Lee's stories), where Captain Stacy and Robbie are discussing Spider-Man and his reasons for keeping his identity a secret. Robbie says "If the public knew who he is...if he'd come out in the open...they'd be less suspicious! They might even start to trust him!"
For a smart guy and a seasoned reporter, Robbie sounds like a real idiot here. He's apparently forgotten that Spidey's fought a lot of criminals who would just LOVE to know who he is so they could attack him through his civilian identity (murder him in his home while he sleeps, kidnap or murder his loved ones, that sort of thing). How does it not occur to Robbie that Spidey's protecting his ID so that his loved ones can't be hurt?
Also, has he forgotten that the police don't trsut Spidey? What makes him think that the cops knowing Spidey's secret will prevent them from hauling his Spider-butt to jail?
Speaking of trust, what the hell makes Robbie think that people will trust Spider-Man if they know who he is?
Stan Lee scripts seemed to have a lot of people using rather absurd logic that dwarfs anything you'd find on our Deep Thoughts forum. But this tops them all.
Last edited by Darknight613; 2005-03-11 2:49 AM.
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"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Yeah, if his identity were revealed, the first person who'd probably try to kill Peter Parker would be J.Jonah Jameson. Our favorite irritable publisher orchestrated quite a few attacks on Spiderman without knowing his identity. And how much more so would Jameson want Parker's skin if he suddenly found out his worst enemy was on his payroll all these years? That also somehow reminds me of Batman's "hot line" to Commissioner Gordon. No one ever thought to trace that line ? 
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:Batman's "hot line" to Commissioner Gordon. No one ever thought to trace that line ?
Even in the 1960s there were "radio phones". I always assumed that the "hotline" worked like one of those. After all, we would sometimes see Batman picking up the Batphone in his car.
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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Yeah, I guess. I think car-phones were more of a fantasy than a reality in the mid-60's. The first I recall seeing was in From Russia With Love with Sean Connery (released in 1963). Where Bond is on a romantic outing and the car phone rings, with "M" calling Bond to visit headquarters for his latest world-saving mission. Bond answers with the phone in one hand, and a beautiful girl begging him for sex in the other. Geez, what a guy has to do for King and country ! I've been heavy into a nostalgic MAD kick recently, and I was a huge MAD reader in the 70's, and while I was reading the book, had managed to get a near-complete run from 1969-1977, with scattered issues prior to that. One of my favorite WTF covers from MAD is this one from issue 38 (March 1958):  ( Click image to enlarge) Funny enough, but what tickled me most was the image of the artist inset at the bottom.
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Joined: Sep 2001
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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Award-Winning Author 10000+ posts
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Another WTF? Anytime the DC characters met Jerry Lewis.
Knutreturns said: Spoken like the true Greatest RDCW Champ!
All hail King Snarf!
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Joined: Sep 2001
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Yeah, I've only read a few of those. And all the more WTF because they were illustrated by Neal Adams ! I've only read the Adams stories, ADVENTURES OF JERRY LEWIS issues 101-104  Adams also did ADVENTURES OF BOB HOPE issues 106-109. These two series were some of Adams' earliest work for DC, before he went on to STRANGE ADVENTURES/Deadman, THE SPECTRE, OUR ARMY AT WAR, BRAVE AND THE BOLD, DETECTIVE, BATMAN, HOUSE OF MYSTERY and other great works for DC.
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Joined: May 2003
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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Actually, a lot of the Jerry Lewis stories were drawn by Bob Oksner
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Another of my favorite covers:  ( click image to enlarge ) WHAT IF 34, August 1982 With the normally detached and emotionless Watcher, begging the reader not to buy this issue of WHAT IF, because of the unspeakably terrible contents. Although it's actually a great issue, collecting humorous parodies of Marvel heroes from issues of CRAZY magazine, with work by most of the creative teams doing the regular series that were parodied here, including: Miller/Janson DAREDEVIL Moench/Sienkiewicz MOON KNIGHT Jones/Brent Anderson KA-ZAR Stern/Simons GHOST RIDER Hall/Breeding AVENGERS Fingeroth/Springer DAZZLER Romita Jr/Layton IRON MAN among others. All framed together in a sequence by Hembeck. My favorite is "Spidey Intellectual Stories" by Stern and Hannigan, where Spiderman and the Mad Thinker, instead of a fight scene, sit around in armchairs discussing Spinoza and the meaning of love. [Comments the Watcher: ] "For a select audience to be sure..." This artist jam issue is second only to the outstandingly fun FANTASTIC FOUR ROAST (March 1982) 
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Brian Azzarello's "For Tomorrow" Superman storyline.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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