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Quote:
Poverty Lad said:
I'm no fan of organized religion, and this is just another reminder why...
Ditto.
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I'm a supporter of orginised religion, but I'll admit it's not without it's problems. I'm not a Catholic so perhaps I could say they're a tad oo orginised. 
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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 And that right there is another reason the Catholic church is so messed up. We have always used grape juice and oyster crackers, or Manochevits(sp) crackers, as the church I go to now uses. I've never heard of something as stupid as denying their communion due to health reasons!
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Every church is messed up.
This loophole obviously won't last.
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
And that right there is another reason the Catholic church is so messed up.
We have always used grape juice and oyster crackers, or Manochevits(sp) crackers, as the church I go to now uses. I've never heard of something as stupid as denying their communion due to health reasons!
We use fresh bread and wine (or grapejuice if one so chooses). The irony is we outgrew our building and now meet in a school and are forced to use non-alchoholic wine because of the schools no-tollerance policy.
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I have no problem with those who believe in God(s) or simply some kind of higher power, but I have to admit, I'm not a fan of turning something into a "religion." I think spirituality should be a unique, personal thing, not a mass-practice with codes and rules and one unwavering "truth".
Historically, it's really been just another example of humanity's self-destructive nature. At least, that's my opinion.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
I have no problem with those who believe in God(s) or simply some kind of higher power, but I have to admit, I'm not a fan of turning something into a "religion." I think spirituality should be a unique, personal thing, not a mass-practice with codes and rules and one unwavering "truth".
Historically, it's really been just another example of humanity's self-destructive nature. At least, that's my opinion.
But what if there IS one unwavering truth?
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Animalman said:
I have no problem with those who believe in God(s) or simply some kind of higher power, but I have to admit, I'm not a fan of turning something into a "religion." I think spirituality should be a unique, personal thing, not a mass-practice with codes and rules and one unwavering "truth".
Historically, it's really been just another example of humanity's self-destructive nature. At least, that's my opinion.
But what if there IS one unwavering truth?
How are we going to find out? Is it the one that's the most powerful, that beats us all into submission and forces its acceptance upon us?
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
But what if there IS one unwavering truth?
Truth is a concept we created. We're imperfect beings.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
But what if there IS one unwavering truth?
Truth is a concept we created. We're imperfect beings.
Then how did we create the concept of truth? Trust is simple.... Truth is what's true. If there was no truth then there would be no point in speaking or thinking.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
How are we going to find out? Is it the one that's the most powerful, that beats us all into submission and forces its acceptance upon us?
We all do the best we can in the culture in which we were born...
Your question itself denies the premise. I said what if there was an unwavering truth to wich you responded with the concept of many truths battleing for supremacy. If there is only one truth it isn't the one that beats us into submission or anything silly like that. If there is an unwavering truth it simply "is".
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Truth is what's true.
That doesn't explain anything. If you don't know what 1 is knowing 1+1=2 is pointless.
Quote:
If there was no truth then there would be no point in speaking or thinking.
Not exactly. Truth doesn't automatically give life meaning or purpose.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
How are we going to find out? Is it the one that's the most powerful, that beats us all into submission and forces its acceptance upon us?
We all do the best we can in the culture in which we were born...
Your question itself denies the premise. I said what if there was an unwavering truth to wich you responded with the concept of many truths battleing for supremacy. If there is only one truth it isn't the one that beats us into submission or anything silly like that. If there is an unwavering truth it simply "is".
I tend also to believe in a singular truth. However, I do not feel that we need "salvation" in order to be a part of that which is Divine. We are sprung from Divinity and are thus divine.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
If there is an unwavering truth it simply "is".
But it isn't "simply is", because there are so many "truths" battling for supremacy. Doesn't that very fact defeat the notion that there can be only one?
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religion in general is stupid, were following ideologies that are hundreds of years old and may not have any merit today
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...i dont understand the fuss, if the religions beliefs are different then yours why would you want to participate? i mean if she believes the other bread is right and they dont then evidently she's going to the wrong church, i dont currently go to church but back when i did i would not attend a church that taught different from my beliefs i think its a bit silly to complain that the church doesnt believe the way you do.....
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I think it's more the prinicple of the matter. Yes she should leave and go to a differnet church since, apparently, there is one that is willing to do things differently, but the Catholic church as a whole is ruled by the Vatican, and the fact that they have these hard pressed rules, like the wheat cracker, women can't be priests, etc, is what's the problem. There are more churches that will aree with the one that denounced the communion, than there are those that are willing to work with them.
I agree with her decision to fight this, but at the same time, I disagree with a lot of what I've heard with the Catholic church. It doesn't seem like a true/pure form of Christianity to me. Course, I also grew up in a Penticostal church and, as a result of some things I saw there, don't like/think denominations are a good thing for the church. I've been going to a non deniminational church for over 10 years now and I love it.
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Quote:
winged creature said:
religion in general is stupid, were following ideologies that are hundreds of years old and may not have any merit today
I dunno. In terms of real world application, I think religion as a moral code than anything else. The teachings of the various religions teach us not to murder, lie, steal, hate, spread gossip, or even hate other people. They teach us to love and respect our fellow man, even if it's someone we don't agree with. These teachings may be hundreds of years old, but I don't think they lack merit - especially in today's society.
I struggle with my place in my religion pretty often, and I've bounced from one synagogue to the next looking for a place where I feel I fit in, and I'm still looking. But I do feel my religion is important to me, especially the ideas of being a good person just because it's the right thing to be. I don't always succeed, and there's no way I always will. No human is without sin, and our teachers don't hide from us the shortcomings of the greatest and most righteous figures and teachers in Jewish history. It doesn't mean we're excused from sin, but rather that despite our human failings and shortcomings, we still need to make an effort to be the best people we can be. No human is beyond hope or redemption (although some say that men like Hitler are exception to this), and that's a truly encouraging thought on a spiritual level.
As for this particular case with the wheat crackers, it's difficult for me to understand the rationale behind this church's ruling. In Judaism, if there's a health issue involved, not only are you allowed to work around it, you're actually supposed to. You're not obligated to deliberately endanger your health, even to perform one of the commandments. If you need to eat on a fast day, not only are you allowed to, but many of the rabbis believe that you have to (however, they also say that if this happens, you need to make up the fast as soon as you're able to.) If it means you don't get points for doing one of the commandments, take the hit. You ask forgiveness from G-d, you follow the other commandments, etc. On Passover, if for health reasons you can't eat regular matzah, you're allowed to eat special matzah suitable for your diet (which are now available) to fullfill the commandment of eating matzah on Passover. G-d understands the circumstances, and isn't going to hold it against you because of legitimate health issues.
So from my personal point of view and the point of view of Judiasm, I can't understand the logic of this church's decision.
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There is nothing wrong with religion and spirituality.
It's the churches that are fucked.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:As for this particular case with the wheat crackers, it's difficult for me to understand the rationale behind this church's ruling. In Judaism, if there's a health issue involved, not only are you allowed to work around it, you're actually supposed to. You're not obligated to deliberately endanger your health, even to perform one of the commandments. If you need to eat on a fast day, not only are you allowed to, but many of the rabbis believe that you have to (however, they also say that if this happens, you need to make up the fast as soon as you're able to.) If it means you don't get points for doing one of the commandments, take the hit. You ask forgiveness from G-d, you follow the other commandments, etc. On Passover, if for health reasons you can't eat regular matzah, you're allowed to eat special matzah suitable for your diet (which are now available) to fullfill the commandment of eating matzah on Passover. G-d understands the circumstances, and isn't going to hold it against you because of legitimate health issues.
So from my personal point of view and the point of view of Judiasm, I can't understand the logic of this church's decision.
Exactly! Christianity's, more or less, the same. No one will force you to eat/do something harmful to yourself. I don't know of a reason why, if someone were to have a dietary problem with what's normally being served for communion, that the church wouldn't work with them instead of against them. After all, communion is the representation of the last supper, not a recreation of it. That's why it's held the first week of community nights, of the month, in my church. Every church I've been to and taken communion there, they've always done it the same way, with the same things, grape juice and oyster crackers, or what they're doing at my church now.
To me, when a church is run like the Catholic church is, having rules that go against the Bible, then that's not right. To stray a bit here, confession is something that's to be done between yourelf and God, not in a confessional. Prayer is another niggle of mine. We're taught that prayer is to be between ourselves and God, no other person/saint.
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By the way, isnt it a little say a tad hypocritical to over turn the poor little girl's communion over this shit?
I mean THAT REALLY AINT THE FUCKING FLESH OF CHRIST YOU MANIACS!
I've never read the bible, but I have one could somebody post where in it lies the recipie for communion wafers?
I mean I'm sure it must have been a big moment when God deliverd the communion wafer recipe unto all the peoples, and the childrens and birdies of the land.
If this had been a little boy this would have been settled in his favor for a blow job.
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All things considered I feel really bad for the little girl. What she is going through is wrong. I hope this doesnt spoil what should have been a good childhood memory.
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Quote:
I mean THAT REALLY AINT THE FUCKING FLESH OF CHRIST YOU MANIACS!
That's the problem, the Catholic church teaches that it IS, because of thier doctrine of transubstantiation.
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Oh I see. It makes sense now. It's the Great Queen Spider!
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This is by far the worst thing I've read in a long while. Quote:
"I'm on a gluten-free diet because I can't have wheat. I could die," she said last week.
Fuck you, Catholicism.
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
To me, when a church is run like the Catholic church is, having rules that go against the Bible, then that's not right.
I realize I'm entering a sensitive area here, but something that's always bothered me is the discrepancy between the various sects towards the interpretation of the Bible. Some seem to view it as a strict rulebook that should be followed verbatum, others seem to view it as simply more of a guideline.
I won't say the Bible has no merit in today's society, I think it does...but I have a hard time looking at a book that was written hundreds(and in the case of the OT, thousands) of years ago and thinking "this is exactly how I should live my life". Inspired by God or not, we are imperfect beings, fully susceptible to the prejudices and cultural influences of our respective era.
This is why I think there can really be no objective truth. Even if God is truth(as it is written in the book of John), we as humans will never be able to interpret God one way, and thus, collectively, never know what that one way is(again, if there even is one).
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Christ didn't come down from Heaven to give us the willies. He was a booster. 
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
To stray a bit here, confession is something that's to be done between yourelf and God, not in a confessional.
Where in the Bible does it say confession is something "to be done between yourself and God, not in a confessional"?
Not saying that you're wrong. Just wondering how you came to that conclusion.
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I'll have to get back to you on that, but I know it's there some where. Maybe someone that knows that off hand, can find it faster than me can post it.
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Don't forget the recipie for communion wafers...
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Animalman, to elaborate you said there were two ways of looking at the Bible To take it verbatum or to view it as sort of guidlines. I would say there are many more ways of looking at it there is of course where I would say the Catholic church and some protestant churches also fit where the Bible isn't enough, but where the church adds rules to scripture. There is of coursse those who view the scriptures as having no solid meaning only what one gleans from them, then there's the literal interpritation, but even that breaks into at least two catagories. There is the wooden litteralists who believe there is no room for interpretation, then the catagory of classical literealists (Where I would place myself and my tradition) where the scriptures are said to be taken literaly as they were intended. That is to say law is interpreted as law, metaphore as metaphore suggestion as suggestion and history as history, realiising that the scriptures were written in history to specific groups. When Paul writes to the Corinthians to say that women should cover thier heads, we need to realise that that book wasn't addressed directly to us in the modern church and need to ask "why would this be important to the Corinthians and how (or if) it applies to us today"
Sorry, that was a little long winded.
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Oh and on the issue of absolute truth. I have no qualms about saying there is a perfect truth while at the same time admitting there is no perfect interpritation of said truth.
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But what is truth without the interpretation of truth?
Doesn't that really just mean that there is no perfect truth?
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Quote:
Animalman said:
But what is truth without the interpretation of truth?
Doesn't that really just mean that there is no perfect truth?
No not at all. I'll use the example of our court system. The jury is there do decifer the truth, but does that mean that they "know" ultimately the truth. You could be an innocent man, but if a jurry interprets that you killed a person that doesn't make it true. Simply put interpritation and truth are clearly two seperate entities all together.
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I think you're taking what I'm saying a bit too literally. Designed truths are different. Statistical truths, legal truths, those are just labels, representations created specifically to have one pre-conceived "answer".
Relatively speaking, they don't apply. Legal guilt or innocence have a previously constructed set of criteria. Real world innonence or guilt is based entirely on subjective interpretation.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
I think you're taking what I'm saying a bit too literally. Designed truths are different. Statistical truths, legal truths, those are just labels, representations created specifically to have one pre-conceived "answer".
Relatively speaking, they don't apply. Legal guilt or innocence have a previously constructed set of criteria. Real world innonence or guilt is based entirely on subjective interpretation.
What if it's not?
I'm not taking what you're saying to litereraly, I'm simply expressing my belifs in litereal terms wich is there is absolute truth, but not perfect interpritation.
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I just meant that your example was an overly literal one. That's all.
In the end, you're right, it's all about one's personal beliefs(which...is kinda my point!)....
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Quote:
Animalman said:
I just meant that your example was an overly literal one. That's all.
In the end, you're right, it's all about one's personal beliefs(which...is kinda my point!)....
Acctually, that's not what I'm saying, ones personal beliefs don't effec truth one way or the other. Truth is simply what is true wether we believe it or not.
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