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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
As it stands now a person is poor if they dip below $9,570 a year. Does that seem like a comfortable amount to anyone?
According to the W-2 form I picked up at work on Thursday, I'm only making about $8800. I'm not dying. It's not fun, but I'm not dying.
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
As it stands now a person is poor if they dip below $9,570 a year. Does that seem like a comfortable amount to anyone?
According to the W-2 form I picked up at work on Thursday, I'm only making about $8800. I'm not dying. It's not fun, but I'm not dying.
Does that $8800 pay all your cost of living or do other factors come into play? (not having to pay rent or other bills most people do)
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Matter-eater Man said:
Getting back to the topic of Hillary Clinton, I can't help but notice a trend of front page stories where some Republican like the RNC chairman declares Hillary as being angry or Laura Bush saying she's out of bounds. Is it really surprising that major GOPers have negative opinions about her that it should be major news? Might I suggest that their novice psychoanalyzing could be a wee bit biased?
It doesn't take a degree in psychology to see when someone displays a common emotion such as anger.
Hillary has a tendency to act angry or speak in a poorly modulated voice that conveys anger. Also, when she's not "on," she tends to get a real sour look on her face. (Case in point: that puss she had when President Bush said something nice about her husband during the SotU address...would it have killed her to crack a smile then).
If her supporters don't want people to comment on her "anger," she should stop acting in a way that, at best, looks and sounds angry.
And, in fact, it appears that even Hillary realizes this. According to the New York Times:
Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton struck back today against a Republican leader's charge on Sunday that if Mrs. Clinton runs for president in 2008, she might fail because voters dislike 'angry candidates'...
Speaking to reporters in a Head Start classroom on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, where she came to criticize President Bush's new federal budget plan released this morning...Mrs. Clinton spoke in even tones throughout the news conference. She conveyed her displeasure with temperate phrases, including referring to Mr. Bush's budget priorities as "upside down," that were far less harsh than the sort of language she sometimes uses at political events and campaign fund-raisers.
If even the New York Times, no friend to republicans, is noting that Hillary has a tendency to sound angry when she speaks then perhaps you, and your sources at Media Matters, should consider the "anger" tag has at least some justificatiable basis in fact.
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Is that what the Spectator & Rove said today G-man  Your example just adds to my point. The other stories were carried in the supposed liberally biased media too. Again big surprise that she spoke differently in front of little kids. Having a bought & paid for whore of the Republican party talking about Hillary's tone isn't/shouldn't be front page news. (talking about the RNC guy not Laura BTW)
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Having a bought & paid for whore of the Republican party talking about Hillary's tone isn't/shouldn't be front page news.
Sure, MEM. And all those early stories about Dean being angry were "repubublican spin" too..until he imploded and took his campaign with him.
But who am I to tell the democrats how to run their campaign? After all, they've done such a good job of things lately.
So keep pushing this:
...as the new face of "moderation." I'm sure it will pay off for your party just as well as pretending no one would think Kerry was haughty or Gore stiff did.
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the G-man said:
AAAAAAHHHHHH!
I'mma have nightmares for MONTHS!
Last edited by PCG342; 2006-02-11 11:43 PM.
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I dunno your type tends to lose it's cool when it comes to Hillary...that doesn't look pretty. After 9/11,katrina,Abramoff,fucked up planning going into Iraq & more people in poverty, normal people might be willing to at least give her or any other Dem a chance.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:more people in poverty...If Bush's economic policies worked like Clinton's I would vote Republican more often.
I've noticed you've started hitting this "more people in poverty" phrase a lot. While I realize you're only parroting some talking point, you might want to stop throwing it around so much, especially in the context of compariing President Bush to President Clinton...
According to census data, the 2004 poverty rate (the last year they provide data for and the highest year under Bush) was 12.7%.
That's the same as the Clinton year 1998. It's lower than the Clinton years 1992-1997. And only slightly above the Clinton years 1997-2000.
In other words...the highest poverty rate under Bush is approximately the same or lower than the rate under the Clinton presidency...the last presidency where, you say, a president's economic policies "worked."
Furthermore, when you look at the average poverty rate under Bush, it is only 12.2%
The average poverty rate under Clinton was 15.1%, or almost three percent higher.
So, in fact, on average, there were more people in poverty under Clinton than Bush.
Care to tell us again, using your own measurement (more or less people in poverty) how well the Clinton policies "worked"?
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the G-man said:
..
Care to tell us again, using your own measurement (more or less people in poverty) how well the Clinton policies "worked"?
Every year Clinton was in office the poverty rate fell. Every year Bush has been in office the poverty rate has gone up. You can talk averages because it makes your guy look a little better but it doesn't hide the fact that every year more people are in poverty. Let me put it this way, do you prefer your house being built up or torn down?
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You can't have it both ways.
If, as you say, the percentage of people in poverty is a benchmark of how economic policies work, then Clinton's high poverty rate means his policies didn't work.
And, while the poverty rate may have risen under Bush, his highest isn't as bad as Clinton's highest, and is only about the same as Clinton's lowest.
In other words, using your own measuring device, the best Clinton could do is about the same as Bush's worst.
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I recognize that Clinton made progress every year while Bush has lost ground every year. Considering the subject is poverty it's truly sad you want to play averages to hide that Clinton made things better while Bush has lost ground every year.
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the G-man said:
You can't have it both ways.
If, as you say, the percentage of people in poverty is a benchmark of how economic policies work, then Clinton's high poverty rate means his policies didn't work.
And, while the poverty rate may have risen under Bush, his highest isn't as bad as Clinton's highest, and is only about the same as Clinton's lowest.
In other words, using your own measuring device, the best Clinton could do is about the same as Bush's worst.
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This is the point where you cut and paste a Media Matters article isn't it?
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Quote:
the G-man said:
This is the point where you cut and paste a Media Matters article isn't it?
No I think I made it clear in how you were using the numbers. Clinton lowered the poverty rate every year while Bush has increased the poverty rate. He may very well leave office with the poverty rate being about where it was when his father left. All the gains under Clinton lost. Guess that would be a sort of victory for you 
BTW, can't remember using Media Matters lately & not quite sure why you & WBAM keep bringing up this great website. Thanks for reminding me though, it is a nice resource.
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Matter-eater Man said:
normal people might be willing to at least give her or any other Dem a chance.
VOTERS OVER THE HILL
The poll from RasmussenReports.com, which has surveyed Clinton's presidential hopes every two weeks over the last year, found that support for her presidential ambitions has hit rock bottom — less than a week after GOP chief Ken Mehlman called her too "angry" to be president.
Now just 27 percent say they'd definitely vote for her — down seven points from the start of the year — and 43 percent say there's no way they'd cast a ballot for her, an eight-point uptick in the past month.
Pollster Scott Rasmussen, who accurately forecast the outcome of the 2004 White House race, said Clinton's support has plummeted among men and party faithful. This poll is the latest in a trend of weakening support for her White House hopes. She now has a 47 percent unfavorable rating, and 45 percent of respondents say she's a political liberal.
"As 2008 gets closer, she'll have to go to the left to win. We'll try to roll her further in that direction," one GOPer told The Post.
"She's been talking moderate, but she has a liberal voting record — and we'll point that out and why she's trying to hide from it."
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Prior to 2004 polls had Bush losing to anyone.
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Dershowtiz Dems Warn the ClintonsTalk cable provocateur Alan Dershowitz told me clearly while discussing his new book, Preemption, that he will not support Hillary Clinton unless and only if she supports preventive war aganst Iran when the time comes.
Dershowitz is adamant. He does not fudge this one. I heard a fury and impatience with the Democratic machinery that will not vanish in the fog of war. I speak routinely with Dems who have similar short, bilious tempers.
Significance to me is that the Clintons have no room to maneuver on the right. If the Clintons aim to veer leftish for early '08 primary season in Iowa and NH and New York, then the Dershowitz Dems will holler on air and damage the trust factor for the general campaign.
Underneath this game is the profound fact on the ground that Israel is in trouble, and that any signal from a Dem candidate that Iran and its pet Syria can be dealt with, or contained, or ignored, will put Israel on a last regimen of dialysis. The Clintons cannot both please their Netrooters and maintain a coherent war fighting policy. Are there enough Dem votes left in Michigan or Iowa or New Mexico or New Hampshire or Wisconsin or Minnesota to permit the Clintons to jettison Netroots as appeasers and still hold or win the states?
And Ohio is gone if the Clintons go left and abandon the Dershowitz Dems. Not even limitless face time for Clark will save the Ohio dream ship.
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Dershowitz is a brilliant man whom I admire on many levels. As a warrior on First Amendment he is unequaled. Everytime you rent an adult video you can say thanks to Alan for his steadfast pursuit of the right to freedom of expression.
He is also brilliant in the area of appellate law in criminal defense cases. Many innocents have avoided execution by AD's brilliant research and argumentation skills. The book and movie Reversal of Fortune chronicle his successful appeal of Claus von Bülow's coviction for trying to kill his wife (great movie).
But he loses all reason on the topic of Israel. No one wants to see the Jewish state driven into the sea. But I'll bet most people don't want to launch a preemptive war with Iran to protect the Jewish state either. After all, it's been such an effective strategy in Iraq. I doubt Alan will be able to dictate foreign policy to the Democratic Party regardless of who wins the nomination.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
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He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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I don't think the question is whether Dershowitz himself will dictate foreign policy. I think the question is whether or not any Democratic nominee will be able to effectively appease both the antiwar left and the Jewish pro-Israel lobby if things get sufficient hot in the middle east.
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Why would she go left? Hillary I'm guessing could probably get through the primary just fine without appealing to the Sheehan crowd. And if they want another Bush in 2008 they can vote third party.
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Random thought:
In 70 AD Imperial Rome, had had enough of the Jews. They burned Jerusalem to the ground, killed all the men of fighing age, rounded up the women and children and enslaved them. Then they shipped them off to the far corners of the Empire so they would never be troubled by Jews again.
2000 years later we are still dealing with the consequences of that action.
If a butterfly flaps it's wings....
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Why would she go left? Hillary I'm guessing could probably get through the primary just fine without appealing to the Sheehan crowd. And if they want another Bush in 2008 they can vote third party.
Quote:
the G-man said:Sheehan publicly attacked Hillary Clinton for her vote in support of the Iraq war. Since then, Clinton, crisscrossing the country in support of her 2008 presidential ambitions, has faced regular protests and even heckling from her own anti-war “base.”
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As I said though, Hillary can get through the primary reguardless of one group. Furthermore the GOP will want to portray the Sheehan group as Hillary's base when it quite clearly isn't. That will be a big plus come election time.
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Very true. Opposing parties are very likely to exaggerate the weaknesses of the other side to make themselves look better. Then again, political parties are always exaggerating their chances to make themselves look better, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see how Hilary does when the shit hits the fan. I seem to recall a certain Howard Dean being a shoe-in for the last Presidential election.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Hillary has a tendency to act angry or speak in a poorly modulated voice that conveys anger. Also, when she's not "on," she tends to get a real sour look on her face.
And, in fact, it appears that even Hillary realizes this.
NY Daily News:
Sen. Hillary Clinton embraced her angry side yesterday, saying Republican policies make her so mad that she and her husband sometimes sit around yelling at the TV set.
"I do yell from time to time at my television set," Clinton (D-N.Y.) confessed to a friendly crowd of donors. "Now that Bill and I have TiVo, we just rewind it and yell all over again."
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
Hillary has a tendency to act angry or speak in a poorly modulated voice that conveys anger. Also, when she's not "on," she tends to get a real sour look on her face.
And, in fact, it appears that even Hillary realizes this.
NY Daily News:
Sen. Hillary Clinton embraced her angry side yesterday, saying Republican policies make her so mad that she and her husband sometimes sit around yelling at the TV set.
"I do yell from time to time at my television set," Clinton (D-N.Y.) confessed to a friendly crowd of donors. "Now that Bill and I have TiVo, we just rewind it and yell all over again."
So? Anger at the failures of Bush and the GOP will actually help connect more to disenfranchised folks.
Bow ties are coool.
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It's to bad that people in Bush's party are so apathetic towards Bush's "leadership". Although considering his poll numbers maybe thats changing?
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r3x29yz4a said:
Anger at the failures of Bush and the GOP will actually help connect more to disenfranchised folks.
At some point you are going to have to accept that Bush isn't running again.
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Have you ever considered the possibility that you might be wrong?
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Clinton's war stance unpopular with significant number in partyIt wasn't so much the nine votes. It was the applause that told the story.
Hillary Rodham Clinton's continued refusal to call for a withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq has left her with two long-shot opponents challenging her for the Democratic Senate nomination this year. More problematic is the discomfort the stance is causing among many of her supporters.
That was evident at a gathering of the state's Democratic Rural Conference earlier this month at a hotel on the Cornell University campus in Ithaca.
The conference is made up of party activists from the 41 counties of the state that are not part of the New York City region or the state's more urban upstate counties. In other words, the more conservative Democrats of New York state.
Featured at the event was a straw poll that Saturday of delegates for the various statewide races, including U.S. Senate.
Clinton spoke to the delegates Friday night and, as expected, received a rousing welcome. It didn't hurt, of course, that state Comptroller Alan Hevesi pumped up the crowd by calling on the delegates to work hard for her re-election.
"We have to get out and make sure she is re-elected to that two-year term," Hevesi said in a joke not lost on an audience well aware that Senate terms run six years and that Clinton leads national polls among potential 2008 Democratic presidential contenders.
But the next morning, the delegates got to hear from one of Clinton's anti-war challengers, labor activist Jonathan Tasini. He got a very warm welcome.
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I went to an anti-war protest today. Well, actually I was going to meet a date outside the Powell St. underground and was surprised by a large group of protesters crossing Market St., blocking my way to the newest future ex-Mrs. Wagner.
Like Hills, I felt distinctly uncomfortable with these people and not just because they came between me and my squeeze. Their sense of style was atroscious! The women all looked like Amy Carter on a bad hair day and wore Berkinstocks. I didn't even want think about the women's take on body hair.
The left could definately use some subscriptions to Cosmo and Esquire.
Last edited by magicjay38; 2006-03-19 6:05 AM.
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If that group was significant enough to keep Clinton from winning the primaries it would be a problem for her. Even in the straw poll, Hillary received hundreds to somebody else's 9 votes. I also see an advantage later on in a presidential race for that group to be vocally against Clinton.
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However, if you think back to 2004, that group was vocally against Kerry too. But as soon as he got the nomination, they supported him. Which helped make Kerry look weak on defense.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
However, if you think back to 2004, that group was vocally against Kerry too. But as soon as he got the nomination, they supported him. Which helped make Kerry look weak on defense.
I think that it was more a combination of the Swifties & that Kerry was running against a war time President that hurt him. He also gave Bush a couple of nice soundbites.
On the other hand, 2008 is a ways off. If Clinton did win the primary & say Cindy Sheehan started actively campaigning for her, I would agree that would hurt Clinton. How much would be up to how Clinton handled it.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
If that group was significant enough to keep Clinton from winning the primaries it would be a problem for her. Even in the straw poll, Hillary received hundreds to somebody else's 9 votes. I also see an advantage later on in a presidential race for that group to be vocally against Clinton.
How does it help her if her base is divided? One of that group that's been so vocally anti-Clinton is none other than super-mom Cidi Sheehan whome the Democratic base has embraced in times past.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
If that group was significant enough to keep Clinton from winning the primaries it would be a problem for her. Even in the straw poll, Hillary received hundreds to somebody else's 9 votes. I also see an advantage later on in a presidential race for that group to be vocally against Clinton.
How does it help her if her base is divided? One of that group that's been so vocally anti-Clinton is none other than super-mom Cidi Sheehan whome the Democratic base has embraced in times past.
I see it as helping Clinton get votes from middle America. My opinion is that most people are sympathetic to Sheehan but wouldn't want her setting policy. So having Sheehan attack Clinton is a plus in my book. Also I think it's unlikely that Republicans will get to enjoy being a unified party like the last election themselves.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I see it as helping Clinton get votes from middle America. My opinion is that most people are sympathetic to Sheehan but wouldn't want her setting policy. So having Sheehan attack Clinton is a plus in my book. Also I think it's unlikely that Republicans will get to enjoy being a unified party like the last election themselves.
So, is Hillary opposes Sheehan it's clever way to "get votes from Middle America," and "a plus in [your] book." But when conservatives oppose Sheehan they're engaging in a "deceitful smear camapaign" against a "grieving mother"?
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,877 Likes: 50
Fair Play! 15000+ posts
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Fair Play! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,877 Likes: 50 |
Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I see it as helping Clinton get votes from middle America. My opinion is that most people are sympathetic to Sheehan but wouldn't want her setting policy. So having Sheehan attack Clinton is a plus in my book. Also I think it's unlikely that Republicans will get to enjoy being a unified party like the last election themselves.
So, is Hillary opposes Sheehan it's clever way to "get votes from Middle America," and "a plus in [your] book." But when conservatives oppose Sheehan they're engaging in a "deceitful smear camapaign" against a "grieving mother"?
I think your neglecting what I constitute as an attack. There is a difference between attacking someone & dissagreeing with them. My full quote that you edited says Quote:
Opinions are fine but deceitful smear campaigns are another matter.
Considering that I'm pointing out that opinions are fine, what exactly do you see where I'm treating Cons differently than Libs?
Fair play!
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