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From Movie Poop Shoot: Gwen Stacy having consensual sex with Norman Osborn? Norman Osborn? Really? Please.
Putting aside the somewhat shaky mechanics of the story, that stretching Gwen’s trip to Europe to seven months is tenuous at best, and that the character is seen in cutaways in England in the original SPIDER-MAN issues and is clearly not pregnant, and allowing for the deux ex machina aspects of the Osborn Goblin formula, which apparently does whatever the writer needs to make a story work (Heal a mortal chest wound? Okay. Artificially age unborn children? Sure, why not. Always seemed to me that the Goblin formula only did two things: Made you strong and made you crazy. And if that’s not the case, why didn’t Harry and Liz Allen’s son grow older super-fast? But I digress…), the better question is why? Why ruin probably the most powerful story in the history of the character, and arguably in Marvel Comics, by retroactively making Gwen Stacy an unfaithful, lying cheat?
I’m now supposed to believe that Gwen Stacy, drawn by Norman Osborn’s “strength and magnetism,” would have sex with the father of her boyfriend’s best friend?
The death of Gwen Stacy in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #121 and 122 was so powerful because it highlighted so many of the recurrent themes for Lee, Ditko and Romita’s run of the book: power, responsibility and guilt. Why did Gwen die? Gwen died because of who Peter Parker was. Gwen was an innocent, used as a tool by Spidey’s most hated and feared enemy, to strike at him in the cruelest manner possible, just because he could. And Peter, despite all the power at his disposal, trying as hard as he could, just couldn’t save her. It’s brutal, it’s cruel, and it’s unfair. That’s life. And Peter has to live with it.
This was powerful stuff, far ahead of its time, and its impact still remains with me. In point of fact, that comic is still one of the few from which I can recite from memory, to this day. (“So do the proud men die – crucified not on a cross of gold, but a stake of humble tin.”) It’s enough that the Goblin murders Gwen because he’s crazy and evil and out to hurt Peter Parker. It’s enough.
If the point of this is to finally alleviate Peter from the guilt over Gwen’s death, then I suppose technically it works, but at the cost of a much better story and motivation for Peter. It’s ultimately a failure, though, because you’re simply never going to convince me that the character as I know her, based on the original Stan Lee appearances, would ever do this. And I’m still at a loss to figure out why you’d want to try. Whether by Lee and subsequent writer Gerry Conway’s original intention or just the passage of time, the Gwen character had come to represent a lot: first love, innocence, the road not taken. Why you thought it’d be better to piss all over that with this notion of Gwen shacking up with the Green Goblin, presumably for sheer shock value, is a mystery to me.
It kind of makes one wonder what the role of editorial at Marvel is these days, between this and the Parade of Pointless Death currently going on in AVENGERS.
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Thanks for reminding me about why I don't read comics anymore.
Seriously.
Sometimes I think about getting back into the habit, but there are too many bad writers and bad story directions in comics these days.
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Because of this and Identity Crisis, I have given up on comics also. Comics are supposed to be escapism and fun. Rape isn't fun. Neither is ruining classic storylines.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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I find myself reading less and less each month.
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I read this and that--IN THE STORE.
I don't contribute money anymore.
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The recent Marvel Knights version of Captain America did it for me.
Marvel had the opportunity to write some powerful post 9-11 stories, and they pissed it away with hand-wringing apologist liberal bullshit.
In all fairness, there were some good moments in the Marvel Knights Cap, but it was overshadowed with the aforementioned crap.
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Yes. Politics got hugely annoying. Although it was mainly character butchering for me.
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This story really pissed me off. Of course, Marvel does this when Stan Lee, Steve Ditko and John Romita Sr. are no longer involved in day-to-day operations. I bet Stan's completely pissed. Same with Roy Thomas, Len Wein and others. Getting new revelations about Gwen every few story arcs is getting old. Soon enough Marvel will probably bring her back! They need to keep her dead and buried. This whole thing really cheapens the story of her murder, IMO.
"You kind of get tired giving the other team credit. At some point you've got to look in the mirror and say 'I sucked.'"
Alex Rodriguez, after the NY Yankees were eliminated from the 2006 ALDS by the Detroit Tigers.
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Quote:
MisterJLA said:
Marvel had the opportunity to write some powerful post 9-11 stories, and they pissed it away with hand-wringing apologist liberal bullshit.
Liberal?
I hated it because I thought it was too preachy and over the top right wing crap. Stuff like "American can save us all"(paraphrasing) and other bullshit.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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I like the new story and the newest revelations.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Quote:
MisterJLA said:
Marvel had the opportunity to write some powerful post 9-11 stories, and they pissed it away with hand-wringing apologist liberal bullshit.
Liberal?
I hated it because I thought it was too preachy and over the top right wing crap. Stuff like "American can save us all"(paraphrasing) and other bullshit.
They tried to play it both ways (which I kind of hinted to earlier..."there were some good moments").
I honestly think Marvel was trying to appease conservatives and liberals alike...on one page of a Cap book, Cap would say something in support of America's war with terrorists,
the next page, we'd see the big bad government covering up a link to the terrorists that he fought in the first arc,
a comparison of 9/11 to the firebombing of Dresden which was completely irrelevant, a commentary about how wrong it was to use nukes to end WWII and that Cap would have never supported it, etc.
They managed to annoy all of their fans, in their attempt at making them all happy.
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it was wrong to use nukes to end WWII? So what, they should have gone along with a ground assault and let millions more people die? fuck that, stupid assed Marvel.
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I still enjoy comics! I just don't read Marvel anymore.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
Stupid Dogg said:
it was wrong to use nukes to end WWII? So what, they should have gone along with a ground assault and let millions more people die? fuck that, stupid assed Marvel.
I don't think that way...that's what the "enlightened" writers and editors at Marvel tried to force-feed to their readers.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I still enjoy comics! I just don't read Marvel anymore.
I never read Marvel thank God.
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Quote:
And by the way, I could have happily gone my entire life without seeing Gwen Stacy in gynecological stirrups. “MARVEL COMICS: Your First Choice in Shitting on the Favorite Stories of Your Childhood.” If you have questions about who the hell thought this was a good idea, well, I don’t have any answers for you, but I’m happy to listen. Send your letters to stipton99x@moviepoopshoot.com.
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Quote:
MisterJLA said:
I don't think that way...that's what the "enlightened" writers and editors at Marvel tried to force-feed to their readers.
yeah, I figured that. Only a stupid ass celebrity-wannabe would go against the nuclear assault that was necessary to avoid more casualties. Yeah, lots of innocents died (bad thing) but a shit load more would have died on a ground assault (badder thing). War, by its nature, is never a good thing, but sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils for the greater good.
Could you imagine what these same people would say today if they didn't drop the nukes? I'd bet my life it'd sound like this: "Yeah they could have dropped a bomb and ended the war, but instead they chose to send more people in to be senselessly slaughtered." You just know that's what they'd say.
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Regarding the use of the hydrogen bomb to end the Pacific War...
I think the main point, that Stupid Dogg is alluding to, is that our perception of the use of the bomb in Japan not an either/or situation. The bomb killed a lot of people. The other option, a land invasion, would have killed a lot of people. Both ways are awful, but one of them had to be done, and it just happened to be the bomb. The fact that the bomb shortened the war by about a year or two and the number of deaths by at least several thousand does not lessen the tragedy of all the innocent people who got killed because their government decided to start a war with the U.S. Even though it was the right decision that Truman made, all factors considered, it was a shitty, genocidal, tragic situation all in all, and that it was the lesser of two evils doesn't negate the wrongness of all those deaths.
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YOU PUT SOUP IN IT!
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It's good that America dropped the bomb, because that eventually led to all those nifty Godzilla movies. And it should be noted that Godzilla is an official part of Marvel continuity!
Knutreturns said: Spoken like the true Greatest RDCW Champ!
All hail King Snarf!
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According to Marvel, Captain America, a soldier, opposed the use of atomic weapons against the Japanese so much, that the eeeeeevil US Government killed Bucky, froze Cap, and cloned him, since he would have opposed this action that did save countless American lives.
But of course we don't know if this really happened, since Marvel had the story written in such a way that it may have been a series of images created by a villain, who hoped to manipulate Cap's mind.
The fuckers.
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Quote:
According to Marvel, Captain America, a soldier, opposed the use of atomic weapons against the Japanese so much, that the eeeeeevil US Government killed Bucky, froze Cap, and cloned him, since he would have opposed this action that did save countless American lives.
Does anyone else find it...odd...Steve Rogers, someone gung ho enough to willingly subject himself to highly dangerous experimental testing in order to fight in the war, someone who would gladly ally himself with a known terrorist named Sub-mariner and an android who burned people to death, would suddenly get all squishy and moral about an a-bomb?
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I could have written better Captain America stories, and I'm a cat for goodness sake.
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I don't find that odd in the least. From all of Cap's appearances he has shown himself to be a very conscientious man. I can definitely imagine him intellectually realizing the necessity of the A-bomb's use while simultaneously having very deep moral problems and regret over it.
I haven't read the comics MrJLA is referring to, but if they are as simplistic as he makes them out to be, it doesn't impress me. Neither do people who try to make this out as a simple black-and-white issue. It's not.
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Quote:
The Time Trust said:
Cunt!
surrre Nowhereman sure...
YOU PUT SOUP IN IT!
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That's what I thought, too...
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I did as well he's fooled us all!
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JMS has responded to much of the criticism leveled at him over the most recent issue of ASM- As I've always said...whether someone likes or doesn't like my work, that's as it should be. I don't argue the validity of opinions.
There are some who don't like the Gwen aspect of this story, and some who think it's deepened the character in a positive way. Why would I want to weigh in on that? Arguing is good. For the first time in a very long time, people are getting passionate enough about the title to have arguments on this scale, and that's good. If I stay out of the way, it's to allow the dialogue to continue unimpeded, whether the book is being praised or raked over the coals.
As a long time fan, I remember almost the identical reactions when it was decided to kill Gwen off, so I knew I'd be walking into a firestorm here. To write is to take chances. Sometimes you succeed, sometimes you don't, because the measure of success is in the eyes of the reader. And a subjective opinion is always right for that reader, always true for that person. So yeah, I've kept low to watch the arguing and see where the bodies land.
The only thing I will mention, the only thing that did surprise me, was the degree to which some folks have turned on *Gwen*. I've heard of the madonna/whore dynamic, but I've never actually seen it played out this strenously. I can't even begin to count the number of posts I've seen from folks who are calling Gwen a slut, a whore, and a tramp...that this destroys her as a person...
Having sex with someone makes that person a *whore*? I'll admit it, *that* flummoxed me. Because I've known plenty of women who, young and naive and foolish, found themselves caught up with an older guy, even if only for a moment, because they are drawn in by them...especially if that someone is as powerful and manipulative an older figure as Norman Osborn. Maybe because I've known so many of them, all of whom are fine people, I've never once thought of them in those admittedly ugly terms.
We all make mistakes in our lives. You who are without sin, throw the first stone, right? Gwen made a mistake. But she took responsibility for it, had the kids when there were other options (I don't want this to turn into a debate on those options, I'm just saying), and was prepared to go toe-to-toe with Norman, who on some level she had to be afraid of, and to raise those children, even if it meant screwing up her career, and marrying Peter.
Now, to *me*, that is a person of immense personal strength and integrity. It gives her a spine and a conscience and a will that we really haven't seen in her before. To me, Gwen is a person...and like all people, she has good and bad, makes mistakes and adjusts for them. Always tries to do the right thing. And when cornered, she'll fight, not just for herself, but for other people. To other people, this seems to make her a slut. This aspect of it isn't a writing thing, isn't a storytelling thing, it's a matter of how one views people who have sex in this world.
And you'll note that at no time does Peter ever say or think these things about her. Because Peter understands. Peter loves her even though she made a mistake. Given the ferocity with which some have turned on a dime and attacked Gwen -- calling someone they say they respected a whore and turning their backs on her character, damning her as a slut and a tramp -- it seems that I may write the comics, but a few other people have the issues.... But that's just my opinion. jms One reader points out, in response: Everything *I* have seen has raked JMS *himself* over the coals for his astounding lack of judgement and profound misunderstanding of all the characters involved. Just reading through his response reveals his almost-comical cluelessness when it comes to the character of Gwen and what she likely would have done based on her personality at the time. Just because he praises Gwen for "being strong" and "standing up to Norman", still doesn't mean his decision is valid. And, I beg your pardon JMS, but most of us don't know a whole bunch of women who throw themselves at older men. I think he's been spending too much time in Hollywood, land of the reinforced casting couch. What an incredible, arrogant jackass this guy is. Another agrees, noting: the way JMS says "gwen did this, people hate that gwen did that", as if he had nothing to do with it, is simply incredible. Maybe it's time for JMS to go back to writing television.
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Does JMS have message boards? I wanna raid something.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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Quote:
Gwen made a mistake. But she took responsibility for it
No, ass-hole YOU made a mistake. I think we all know this is his secret personal fantasy was of putting himself as the person to "deflower" poor Gwen.
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A mistake is losing your keys. Sleeping with your friends dad in being a whore.
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Also, as someone old enough to have read the original "Death of Gwen Stacy" stories when they first came out...
Norman Osborne had no "strength and magnetism." He was not the charismatic businessman that everyone has ret-conned him into being.
If anything, he was more the "crotchety dad," who picked on his kid, sort of like Red from "that 70s show"
In fact, that was one of the reasons that his being the Goblin was a shock. Harry's dad was just sort of this rich, loudmouthed "Archie Bunker" type, not some sort of charismatic uber-mensch.
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Right. I never read the comics firsthand, as I wasn't born until the mid-70s, but I have read all the Spider-Man stories from the beginning to the death of Gwen Stacy (and several beyond).
It seems to me that Norman Osborne was portrayed as either a somewhat broken man (after his memories of being the Green Goblin disappeared) or as an obsessive and perpetually angry man while he was the Green Goblin. I'm not sure where this magical charisma has come from, but this is the first I've heard of it.
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MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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