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Thing is- I can’t spell or type. I spell so badly my spell check doesn’t even know what I was trying to spell. And I have five Eisners HAHAHAHHA!!
-Brian Michael Bendis
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Quote:
MisterJLA said:
According to Marvel, Captain America, a soldier, opposed the use of atomic weapons against the Japanese so much, that the eeeeeevil US Government killed Bucky, froze Cap, and cloned him, since he would have opposed this action that did save countless American lives.
But of course we don't know if this really happened, since Marvel had the story written in such a way that it may have been a series of images created by a villain, who hoped to manipulate Cap's mind.
Captain America isn't real. He's a fictional character. We can do whatever we want to him. I had him get kidnapped by Neo-Nazis. Did this really happen? No. Brian Bendis had the Avengers fall apart in front of him. Did this really happen? No.
I hardly see how Gwen doing this makes her a slut or a whore. One extra penis and suddenly she's a pariah (shut up) and we're all quitting comics. Get over it. I hope Peter finds Aunt May's vibrator in the next issue.
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Really, out of all the reasons for quitting comics, I think "harming the integrity of the characters" is the weakest one I've ever heard. Especially since there will always be new characters to entertain us, and changes made to the old ones every few years.
And that's terrible.
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I haven't read all of this thread and I got the comic on Friday but haven't read it yet but let me add my voice to all the others! GWEN-YOU SLUT!
-----once over and twice twisted---------
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These are the same people that would have quit comics when Frank Miller made Karen Page a slutty drug-addicted porn star.
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-----once over and twice twisted---------
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Then we're all agreed...Norman Osborn-YOU SLUT!
-----once over and twice twisted---------
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Quote:
Franta said:
TTT you ignorant slut.
And that's terrible.
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Quote:
Disco Steve said:
One extra penis and suddenly she's a pariah (shut up)
I don't know why, but that really made me laugh. 
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Quote:
Kristogar Velo said:
Quote:
Franta said:
TTT you ignorant slut.
YOU PUT SOUP IN IT!
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Quote:
Disco Steve said:
Quote:
MisterJLA said:
According to Marvel, Captain America, a soldier, opposed the use of atomic weapons against the Japanese so much, that the eeeeeevil US Government killed Bucky, froze Cap, and cloned him, since he would have opposed this action that did save countless American lives.
But of course we don't know if this really happened, since Marvel had the story written in such a way that it may have been a series of images created by a villain, who hoped to manipulate Cap's mind.
Captain America isn't real. He's a fictional character. We can do whatever we want to him. I had him get kidnapped by Neo-Nazis. Did this really happen? No. Brian Bendis had the Avengers fall apart in front of him. Did this really happen? No.
The events I listed happened in Marvel continuity.
That's enough for me to drop the book.
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A nice civil conversation, and suddenly someone has to go and use the C-word...
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Quote:
Disco Steve said:
A nice civil conversation, and suddenly someone has to go and use the C-word...
FRUCK OFF!
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It's true. If someone writes a bad story, just don't read it.
I don't like Chuck Austen's X-Men. I don't read it unless it somehow makes it to me free of charge. Just wait for the next guy and hope he does something better.
This whole "I'm quitting comics because I don't like one thing" is extremely silly. If you really liked artform of comics, you could find something else to read.
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It goes beyond one story. Devin Grayson ruined Nightwing. Joe Kelly ruined JLA. The countless shit crossovers ruined just about all the Bat books for me. Geoff Johns ruined Avengers.
It's the mentality of comics that got to me. Too many bad writers pushing their agendas of on their readers. If it's not bad agendas, it's just bad writing that seems to be more of a problem now, then it ever was.
Fuck 'em. I'm too zoned out on video games to ever bother with all the garbage out there now anyway. If I ever do feel the urge to read comics again, I'll just go through the tons that I already have.
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Quote:
Disco Steve said:
This whole "I'm quitting comics because I don't like one thing" is extremely silly. If you really liked artform of comics, you could find something else to read.
What if you know the next writers are definitely going to carry the device that spoils the characters for you until the end of comicbookdom?
Yes yes, the whole selective continuity comes into play, but despite what you guys say, selective/elective or not, writers do carry on after others. It seems inherent half the time. Especially with the ones I hate. Example: Rucka made a story out of mainstream that I hate. Someone included it because he's Rucka.
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Quote:
Franta said:
surrre Dhaise sure
THAT......Was low.
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Quote:
What if you know the next writers are definitely going to carry the device that spoils the characters for you until the end of comicbookdom?
Yes yes, the whole selective continuity comes into play, but despite what you guys say, selective/elective or not, writers do carry on after others. It seems inherent half the time. Especially with the ones I hate. Example: Rucka made a story out of mainstream that I hate. Someone included it because he's Rucka.
Nicely put.
Both you and Disco made valid points, so I think it's only reasonable that you make out with each other, and let rex watch.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Disco Steve said:
This whole "I'm quitting comics because I don't like one thing" is extremely silly. If you really liked artform of comics, you could find something else to read.
What if you know the next writers are definitely going to carry the device that spoils the characters for you until the end of comicbookdom?
Yes yes, the whole selective continuity comes into play, but despite what you guys say, selective/elective or not, writers do carry on after others. It seems inherent half the time. Especially with the ones I hate. Example: Rucka made a story out of mainstream that I hate. Someone included it because he's Rucka.
Goddamn, your posts are difficult to decipher.
I don't know if the next writer is going to suck. Chances are, he or she's not going to ruin a character for me. These characters are nothing but toys for the writer to play with. One guy can break it, another could fix it. Look at Hawkman, for example.
Better example: Animalman. After Morrison, Milligan, and Delano, that Proust guy made him into a nutty shaman. Many of "us" would say he ruined the character. Where is Animalman now? Is he irreversibly tainted? No. He's back to his superhero status. No harm, no foul.
JLA: How did Kelly/Johns ruin JLA/Avengers?
Personally, I thought Kelly's run on JLA was strong at first (I absolutely loved The Obsidian Age), but soon turned into crap. JLA is one of those things that can't be ruined, I don't think. It's about a team of superheroes. Any superheroes. If anything, the "Detroit Era" ruined JLA forever, and I'm quitting comics because of something that happened decades ago.
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Quote:
Disco Steve said:
Goddamn, your posts are difficult to decipher.
Eh? What's wrong?
Quote:
I don't know if the next writer is going to suck. Chances are, he or she's not going to ruin a character for me. These characters are nothing but toys for the writer to play with. One guy can break it, another could fix it. Look at Hawkman, for example.
Okay Disco, mabe you can be more sympathetic to this stance:
I don't want to wait for years before I can buy my favorite books again. I want to enjoy them constantly. Maybe the writers will change em' back eventually. But I don't like that "eventually". Every writer could exercise their pure opinion until I die before I can read it and enjoy it again. And seeing the hero change at whim and steer away readers just because they want to see a hero this way or that isn't a likeable......Uh, thing.
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That last post... it was hard to make sense of for some reason. Something about the way you wrote it.
I think it's a bit idealistic and problematic to expect to enjoy anything constantly. Not every chickwich is going to be good. Sometimes you'll find a bone within the deep-fried goodness.
I'm of the belief that one writes for him or herself first and writes for others second, so things like "respecting characters" and "not alienating fanboys" are more like burdens than duties.
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Quote:
Disco Steve said:
I think it's a bit idealistic and problematic to expect to enjoy anything constantly. Not every chickwich is going to be good. Sometimes you'll find a bone within the deep-fried goodness.
I'm of the belief that one writes for him or herself first and writes for others second, so things like "respecting characters" and "not alienating fanboys" are more like burdens than duties.
I realize this reasoning comes from a person not wanting the writer to feel inhibited and therefore be more creative, but I just don't see how that serves the people who you're trying to entertain is all.
I mean, these heroes belong to everyone in a sense.
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Well, you have to assume that the writer is interested in the character he's working on, and is trying to write the best story possible. I think a good story with this character does serve the reader.
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The problem with what JMS did is that he fucked around with one of the most significant stories of the last 30+ years and pretty retconned it into insignificance.
At the time of its original publication, "the Death of Gwen Stacy" was one of the most groundbreaking stories any comic book company had produced.
At a time when characters are killed, and brought back to life, regularly, this might seem hard to believe, but Gwen's death was a major, major, shock. Suporting characters did not die, and the hero's girlfriend sure as hell didn't die. As a result, Gwen's death was almost as shocking as if, for example, one day Superman DIDN'T catch Lois Lane as she plummted from the Daily Planet.
To make things even more significant was the fact that Gwen's death was NOT because she was "Spider-man's Girlfriend, Gwen Stacy." She wasn't kidnapped because the Goblin set out to capture her in a scheme of revenge against the wall-crawler. She didn't end up in his clutches because she was a "snooping girl reporter." Instead, she was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Finally, it should be noted that a lot of what Gwen symbolized was Peter's innocence. Her death meant a death of that innocence, for better or worse. Uncle Ben died because Peter didn't get involved. Gwen died despite Peter getting involved.
In short, there was a reason that Busiek and Ross used her death as the climax of the "Marvels" mini-series. It had very specific meaning.
And, rather than respect any of that, JMS threw it all out. Gwen was no longer an innocent and her death was no longer random.
You can defend JMS by saying "he's just trying to tell a good story." However, a "good storyteller" doesn't need to throw out everything that was meaningful and important about someone else's story.
So, he may have been trying to tell a good story. But he failed, miserably.
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I'd hardly say Gwen was completely random didnt Osbourn know her?
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re-reading that
I seem like such a bitch...
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Random in the sense that Norman was going to Peter's apartment and just happened to find her there. If Mary Jane, Aunt May or the cleaning lady had been there, they probably would have suffered the same fate. This is part of why Gwen's death was such a big damn deal. Up to that moment, one of the biggest conceits in comics was that the hero couldn't reveal his identity, even to his girlfriend, because his "enemies would strike at [him] through" the girlfriend. But here, the girlfriend died simply because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Furthermore, as noted here: I dug out Essential Spider Man 6 which reprints The Night Gwen Stacy Died, and there is no way to make the events ...fit. The implication in the story is that Gwen and Norman's conversation takes place just before Peter shows up but in ASM 121 Spidey look in the window and sees Gwen, Mary Jane and Harry with the Doctor. A Doctor that isn't there in in MJ's retelling. Also, that big long conversation with Norman and Gwen happened in the time it took Peter to change clothes? Doubtful. And when in ASM 121 did MJ forget her purse? Straczynski is reordering the events of an old story (and rewriting dialogue) to make his story work.
And that's cheating.
It's fine to show a flashback to a previous scene and then to continue the scene to show us what happened afterwards but you cannot alter what has already occurred (by another writer even) because all suspension of disbelief is taken away and if that is shattered in a super hero comic book then you've lost your readers.
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Quote:
MisterJLA said:
It goes beyond one story. Devin Grayson ruined Nightwing. Joe Kelly ruined JLA. The countless shit crossovers ruined just about all the Bat books for me. Geoff Johns ruined Avengers.
Time to discover the magic of independent comics then.
This whole thread makes me wonder if a good many of you guys haven't yet realized how vast and plentiful is the art form of comics.
And that's terrible.
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Quote:
Kristogar Velo said:
Quote:
MisterJLA said:
It goes beyond one story. Devin Grayson ruined Nightwing. Joe Kelly ruined JLA. The countless shit crossovers ruined just about all the Bat books for me. Geoff Johns ruined Avengers.
Time to discover the magic of independent comics then.
This whole thread makes me wonder if a good many of you guys haven't yet realized how vast and plentiful is the art form of comics.
You mean there are comics that AREN'T about superheroes?
You mean like Archie, right?
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Superman shall be rewritten where ZOD had an affair with Lana while she was still dating Clark! 
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SHE NEVER DATED CLARK YOU BITCH!!!!!!! SHE HAD A CRUSH BUT NOTHING HAPPENED!!!!!!!! AAAHHHHH!!!!!!! AAHHHHHHH!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAHHHH THE CHARACTER'S BEEN RUINED FOR ME I'M QUITTING COMICS!!!!!! AAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! AAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
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