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Quote:
Ultimate Jaburg53 said:
I'm not dealing with imagined stereotypes who are getting what they asked for.
Were dealing with people who either remained ignorant the past almost twenty years, or completely ignored the warnings.
Are they getting what they deserve? Who am I to judge? That is between them and whatever god they believe in.
But I don't feel sorry for them.
I have as much feeling for them as people who have accidently killed themselves cleaning thier firearms.
It's not only drug addicts and homosexuals who contract HIV it could be anyone.
That's what I was trying to say... I wish death on no one except pedophiles, rapists, and cold blooded murderers (not self-defense).
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First of all, I didn't say God created AIDS. I said we did, and then followed through with the system he created for the (I guess G-man did say it best) consequences to rain down upon ourselves.
And second of all, condoms shouldn't have been needed in a the first place, and they shouldn't be needed now.
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According to you. Not everyone lives by your same values.
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You're trying to express how my values are inconsistent. I'm defending them.
You're the one who picked the playing field.
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I never said the discussion should be within the boundaries of your values. I still don't see why people shouldn't practice pre-marital sex if they don't believe in the bible.
It's funny, yet deeply tragic, that the no condoms rule has been enforced so much (I don't believe no masturbation has been enforced that much, yet it's the same wasted seed principle) that people exist who practice premarital sex but don't rubber up for fear of offending God, and in some cases end up getting diseases.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
backwards7 said:
There are also forces working against it. If someone in the church questions the efficacy of contraception or makes unfounded claims that the HIV virus is capable of passing through microscopic pores in condoms then there are people in Africa, where religion is still practised very deeply, who will believe it. These kind of off-hand statements which seldom have any grounding in hard science serve to undermine safe sex programmes often in very vulnerable areas.
Please explain. The Church has never made a claim like that, its motivations for banning porphylactics dwell in other areas.
I was referring to this story:
Vatican: condoms don't stop Aids - Guardian
Quote:
Vatican: condoms don't stop Aids
Steve Bradshaw
Thursday October 9, 2003
The Guardian
The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.
The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to HIV.
A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue.
The church's claims are revealed in a BBC1 Panorama programme, Sex and the Holy City, to be broadcast on Sunday. The president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, told the programme: "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom.
"These margins of uncertainty... should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger."
The WHO has condemned the Vatican's views, saying: "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million."
The organisation says "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%. There may be breakage or slippage of condoms - but not, the WHO says, holes through which the virus can pass .
Scientific research by a group including the US National Institutes of Health and the WHO found "intact condoms... are essentially impermeable to particles the size of STD pathogens including the smallest sexually transmitted virus... condoms provide a highly effective barrier to transmission of particles of similar size to those of the smallest STD viruses".
The Vatican's Cardinal Trujillo said: "They are wrong about that... this is an easily recognisable fact."
The church opposes any kind of contraception because it claims it breaks the link between sex and procreation - a position Pope John Paul II has fought to defend.
In Kenya - where an estimated 20% of people have HIV - the church condemns condoms for promoting promiscuity and repeats the claim about permeability. The archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki, said: "Aids... has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms."
Sex and the Holy City includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choirmaster against using condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through".
In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."
Panorama found the claims about permeable condoms repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America.
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That's odd. I never heard that before.
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Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
W-H-Y?
Cuz' you increase your chances 97% of not contracting. That's why.
Prolly won't have to say that it was your fault.
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What about condoms? You considerably increase your chance of not contracting that way too.
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Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
What about condoms? You considerably increase your chance of not contracting that way too.
Yeah, you're right Mxy. Condoms are a lot safer than abstinence, you are so damn right Mxy.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
What about condoms? You considerably increase your chance of not contracting that way too.
Yeah, you're right Mxy. Condoms are a lot safer than abstinence, you are so damn right Mxy.
I think the best quote I heard on this issue was something along the lines of "the only 100% way to avoid a car crash is to not drive, but the government still spends millions per year advertising seat belts."
Bow ties are coool.
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Oh, and wash your hands people. I can't stress that enough.
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Wash your hands before you eat!
Give those germs a good clean sweep!
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
I think the best quote I heard on this issue was something along the lines of "the only 100% way to avoid a car crash is to not drive, but the government still spends millions per year advertising seat belts."
Sho'nuff r3x. Car crashes are entirely similar to AIDS.
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Quote:
Barney said:
Wash your hands before you eat!
Give those germs a good clean sweep!
Hi Barney.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
I think the best quote I heard on this issue was something along the lines of "the only 100% way to avoid a car crash is to not drive, but the government still spends millions per year advertising seat belts."
Sho'nuff r3x. Car crashes are entirely similar to AIDS.
Its a metaphor, genius.
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
What about condoms? You considerably increase your chance of not contracting that way too.
Yeah, you're right Mxy. Condoms are a lot safer than abstinence, you are so damn right Mxy.
You appear to have suffered a comprehension breakdown!
Please read again, he didn't say that!
Have a nice day!
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While abstinence certainley would prevent catching diseases, it's not a realistic solution.
Fair play!
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Now the "Super AIDS" has shown up in Boston: Massachusetts doctors have reported several HIV patients with a resistance to some of the most commonly prescribed treatments, raising further concerns about a possible new, drug-resistant strain of the virus.
The patients' resistance to drug treatment is similar to a New York City case that has sparked widespread concern among public-health experts, the Boston Herald reported.
"There is global concern that there may be an increasing amount of patients who have a resistant virus," said Dr. Gregory Robbins of Massachusetts General Hospital.
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I wonder if it is possible to make the process in which HIV transcribes itself from RNA to DNA more reliable so that copies are identical to the originals and there is no mutation. It sounds counter-intuitive because you would be assisting the passage of the disease into the human body. However if you can stifle the mutation that occurs on a massive scale as a result of this process then you are effectively pinning the virus down – preventing it from evolving. If you can do that then when it comes to treatment you are aiming at a sitting duck as opposed to a fast moving target that is capable of completely changing its identity every 6 weeks.
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The Chicago Tribune is now reporting it in San Diego and, not suprisingly, San Francisco.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
While abstinence certainley would prevent catching diseases, it's not a realistic solution.
Yeah, because we can't possibly bring ourselves to simply not have sex. Unthinkable! 
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
What about condoms? You considerably increase your chance of not contracting that way too.
Yeah, you're right Mxy. Condoms are a lot safer than abstinence, you are so damn right Mxy.
I'm glad we finally agree on something. Though I can't see the part where I said condoms were safer than abstinence...
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Don't you people know that abstinence makes the heart grow fonder? Oh, it's true! Nobody you've ever dated can call you and depress you with "I have AIDS." cause you didn't give it to them.
Of course, some of us don't need aides to kill and maim. 
Wait.. how dare you all lead me to using bad punnery! Off with your heads!
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
While abstinence certainley would prevent catching diseases, it's not a realistic solution.
Yeah, because we can't possibly bring ourselves to simply not have sex. Unthinkable!
Well if you consider the problems that the church has with it's Priest & Nuns on the celabacy thing, yeah there are going to still be regular folk having premarital sex no matter how much you push abstinence. I'm not saying it's not worth pushing but its never been a solution. The only difference these days is guys don't have to marry the gal if he gets her nocked up.
Fair play!
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It is interesting to note that AIDS did not gain a world wide toehold until the years after the "sexual revolution" more or less told people to mock the ideas of abstinence and monogamy.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
While abstinence certainley would prevent catching diseases, it's not a realistic solution.
Yea that would assume that somehow human beings had the ability to make decisions for them selves and weren't crazed animals ruled by thier base urges.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I'm glad we finally agree on something. Though I can't see the part where I said condoms were safer than abstinence...
I figured you were trying to be logical. You know, better to pick the safest route. And apparently, abstinence isn't as safe as condoms in your book.....Or are you saying otherwise and just being witty? I can't tell.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
It is interesting to note that AIDS did not gain a world wide toehold until the years after the "sexual revolution" more or less told people to mock the ideas of abstinence and monogamy.
I think many factors play into events leading to AIDS gaining a toehold. WW2, technology improvements, birth control & people not farming & moving to the city. Need I mention homosexuality being taboo was a big help to spreading the virus.
Fair play!
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Actually, the virus spread as the taboo against homosexuality lessened.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
While abstinence certainley would prevent catching diseases, it's not a realistic solution.
Yea that would assume that somehow human beings had the ability to make decisions for them selves and weren't crazed animals ruled by thier base urges.
I agree but don't most people know about abstinence already (not to mention safe sex) So are we talking about abstinence education or maybe abstinence training (like a dog)?
Fair play!
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Actually, the virus spread as the taboo against homosexuality lessened.
Just barely though. The rest stop/bathhouse sex didn't start happening because the taboo lessoned. Those behaviors took root & blossomed long before then.
Fair play!
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Well if you consider the problems that the church has with it's Priest & Nuns on the celabacy thing, yeah there are going to still be regular folk having premarital sex no matter how much you push abstinence. I'm not saying it's not worth pushing but its never been a solution. The only difference these days is guys don't have to marry the gal if he gets her nocked up.
Well met. But how prevalent are these problems in the Catholic church you're referring to? (Note - I'm not Catholic so don't take this as some sort of challenge.) I'll concede that no matter how much abstinence is promoted people will still not listen. But referring to the aforementioned car-crash analogy, a lot of people die in car crashes because they don't wear their seat belts. Do we decide that seat belts aren't worth putting in there because some people don't wear them anyway? Then why do we use the same sort of argument when it comes to abstinence?
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I think they'll have the official stats posted the day after judgement day:D But I'm not poo poohing abstinence education. I am of the opinion that by itself is not the solution. There was a thread about abstinence clubs & I think thats great but do you think that type of thing is the answer to the problem? 
Fair play!
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Quote:
Pariah said:I figured you were trying to be logical. You know, better to pick the safest route. And apparently, abstinence isn't as safe as condoms in your book.....Or are you saying otherwise and just being witty? I can't tell.
It's obvious that abstinence is safer than using condoms, but is the percentage big enough to make a considerable difference? Don't condoms protect you like 99.9% of the time? There's a small chance of contracting the disease, but that small chance always exists, even with people who practice abstinence, because of cases like blood transfusions and the like.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
I think they'll have the official stats posted the day after judgement day:D But I'm not poo poohing abstinence education. I am of the opinion that by itself is not the solution. There was a thread about abstinence clubs & I think thats great but do you think that type of thing is the answer to the problem?
Heh. He said poo.
Maybe you just came across differently. I dunno. Sometimes I misread subtleties - which is understandable since all we have to go on is words somebody else types.
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