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Eight-year-old Tilly Merrell hadn't had a normal meal since she was an infant, and the San Francisco Chronicle explains why: British doctors found that the food she swallowed went into her lungs instead of her stomach, causing devastating lung infections. They said she had isolated bulbar palsy, and their solution was to feed her through a stomach tube. Forever.
But having a backpack with a food pump wired to her stomach wasn't much of a life for a girl whose favorite smell is bacon frying--a girl who once broke through a locked kitchen door in an effort to sneak some cheese. So her family got help from their community of Warndon, about 120 miles north of London, raising enough money to take Tilly, now 8, on a 5,000-mile journey they hoped might change her life, a journey to Lucile Salter Packard Children's Hospital at Stanford University. Doctors there examined her and found out there was nothing wrong with her. Now she's eating normally, and loving it. Oh well, at least socialized medicine saved her from British food. 
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Quote:
PJP said:
....oh and don't take the Lord's Name in vain please...Thanks!
He's not my Lord, hare hare, krishna krishna.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:00 PM.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Eight-year-old Tilly Merrell hadn't had a normal meal since she was an infant, and the San Francisco Chronicle explains why:
British doctors found that the food she swallowed went into her lungs instead of her stomach, causing devastating lung infections. They said she had isolated bulbar palsy, and their solution was to feed her through a stomach tube. Forever.
But having a backpack with a food pump wired to her stomach wasn't much of a life for a girl whose favorite smell is bacon frying--a girl who once broke through a locked kitchen door in an effort to sneak some cheese. So her family got help from their community of Warndon, about 120 miles north of London, raising enough money to take Tilly, now 8, on a 5,000-mile journey they hoped might change her life, a journey to Lucile Salter Packard Children's Hospital at Stanford University.
Doctors there examined her and found out there was nothing wrong with her. Now she's eating normally, and loving it.
Oh well, at least socialized medicine saved her from British food.
If health care is determined by ability to pay, then only the wealthy will be healthy.
This will be my mantra on this subject: No American citizen should have to worry about being able to pay in order to take full advantage of the benefits of American medicine.
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The poor get medicaid, medicare and/or free visits to an emergency room. All of which is accomplished without nationalized health care, aka socialized medicine
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Quote:
the G-man said:
The poor get medicaid, medicare and/or free visits to an emergency room.
We all know what great, attentive individualized care that means...
Show of hands...how many think the prospect of seeing a doctor via an Emergency Room is just a peachy thing to have to do?
Uh huh. Thought so.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Normally I wouldn't say this, but, you sir, are being foolish!
You pay taxes, these taxes go to pay for your military and stuff. I seriously doubt you have any say in what the US military does, and yet you pay for it anyway!
And yes, it IS the same thing
Acctually I DO (in the same manner that I mentioned before through government and my elected officials) have a say in what my military does. The Legislature (my elected officials) had to vote to aprove going to war requested by teh commander in chief (whome I also have a say in every four years) That same electd official has to get his military budget approved by my representitives. So the government controlls the military and i elect teh government. Should the government have the same controll over decisions you make in regards to your health?
Now next time perhaps you should issue a direct challenge to my assertion rather than just insult me, calling me foolish or suggesting that I don't know what I'm talking about, because it makes you look all the more foolish when your claim turns out to be false. You could do what J and W, did and provide a direct challenge to what I said, wich i will now address.
When I made my blanket statement i was wrong to a degree, in that I was thinking about rights not specifically sited in the constitution. I think the right to councel is an exception because it's protecting you from having done to you by others or by the government. You're presumed innocent at the time of recieving council so the government has to see that you are protected before acting against you. The government is choosing to act against you so they have to incure the costs in doing so and one of those costs is you being represented. I have needed a lawer before, but not because i was being preosecuted, but to protect my own intrests, but since the government wasn't acting against me didn't have the right to a lawer so I had to pay him myself. If you aren't being prossecuted or if there the government isn't seeking to prosecute you, you don't get a free lawer.
In regards to health care it's a personal coice.. What level of health care should you be guarrenteed? Do the rich have the "right" to the quality of healthcare they currently recieve? because with socialized medicine the quality of healthcare suffers and hence the rich will be denied the level of healthcare they currently recieve, or should everyone recieve the same level of healthcare that the richest citizens currently recieve? What if I don't like or agree with modern conventional theories of healthcare. What if I would prefer to go to a holistic healer or a D.O. or an accupuncturist, or a shamaan or faith healer for that matter do i not have the right to recieve the specific type of healthcare I prefer or should all those things be subsidized by the government and paid for by you?
Highlights from the above post for the attention challenged among us.
Acctually I DO ... have a say in what my military does.
the government controlls the military and i elect teh government. Should the government have the same controll over decisions you make in regards to your health?
I think the right to councel is an exception because it's protecting you from having done to you by others or by the government.
What level of health care should you be guarrenteed?
What if I don't like or agree with modern conventional theories of healthcare ... do i not have the right to recieve the specific type of healthcare I prefer or should all those things be subsidized by the government and paid for by you?
What I MEANT was that you have no direct influence on how your tax money is allocated.
Health care is paid with tax money, taxes are a civic duty, not a right and not a privilege.
And obviously, I did not mean to offend you!
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:01 PM.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
The poor get medicaid, medicare and/or free visits to an emergency room.
We all know what great, attentive individualized care that means...
Show of hands...how many think the prospect of seeing a doctor via an Emergency Room is just a peachy thing to have to do?
Uh huh. Thought so.
So for the record, you're saying that seeing a doc in the E ward is unpleasant therefore the "right" to healthcare has now graduated to the "right" to healthcare in the convinience of a cozy family care office.
Oh and:
Quote:
We all know what great, attentive individualized care that means...
Socialized medicine doesn't mean the poor will get the same treatment that the rich currently enjoys, it means the rich will get the same treatment the poor currently enjoys.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
PJP said:
....oh and don't take the Lord's Name in vain please...Thanks!
He's not my Lord, hare hare, krishna krishna.
True, but there are some people who are offended by teh use of the Lord's name in vain even though we don't complain openly. I'm not going to tell you what to say or not, but consider that some people are offended before being flip about it. Just because a woman isn't my wife doesn't mean I won't be offending her husband if I dissrespect her.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:01 PM.
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Quote:
What I MEANT was that you have no direct influence on how your tax money is allocated.
Wich is why I said:
Quote:
I could (by way of government) restrict your right to eat fatty foods...
I know I don't have direct controll, but in theory i do have controll by way of my representitives and elected officials. So my question was, should I (the government) have the same level of say over how my tax money is spent in regards to keeping you healthy so that my money isn't wasted in the same way i have say over how my other tx dollers are spent? Right now a portion of my taxes goes towards paying for roads. even though i pay for the roads, I'm not allowed in the HOV lane without a passenger, because my elected officials have decided that would be the most efficient way to spend those dollers. Should my elected officials have the same say over how many Krispy Kreams you eat or how permiscues you are? Now stop dodging the issue and answer it.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:01 PM.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
What I MEANT was that you have no direct influence on how your tax money is allocated.
Wich is why I said:
Quote:
I could (by way of government) restrict your right to eat fatty foods...
I know I don't have direct controll, but in theory i do have controll by way of my representitives and elected officials. So my question was, should I (the government) have the same level of say over how my tax money is spent in regards to keeping you healthy so that my money isn't wasted in the same way i have say over how my other tx dollers are spent? Right now a portion of my taxes goes towards paying for roads. even though i pay for the roads, I'm not allowed in the HOV lane without a passenger, because my elected officials have decided that would be the most efficient way to spend those dollers. Should my elected officials have the same say over how many Krispy Kreams you eat or how permiscues you are? Now stop dodging the issue and answer it.
added:
Sorry for being harsh, I realise that there may be a confusion because when I speak of my governments decisions I speak in the first person, because here in America I still have some say in how my government works and have a certain level of controll over thier accountability.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:01 PM.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
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r3x29yz4a said:
Interesting Read on FDR's Second Bill of Rights.
That's why he's my favorite.
And this is whayy I think he's highly overrated, asside from teh following essentially spelling out socialism many are flawed on a more specific level:
The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.
I have to go, but i'll be back later to go into each specifically, but I wanted everyone so see what y'all were so excited about and see if they can find the inherant flaws in each of the above "rights".
If there is any flaw in these Rights, it's that they're overly idealistic. I agree with and support all of them, but I don't know how we could realistically implement them.
Other than that, I don't see anything wrong with them.
OK, here goes.
The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
OK, a job is and has alwayse been a privilage. That's why you EARN a living rather than being granted one. Rights aren't something you earn they're something guarenteed regardless of personal ability. I have the right to free speach and that doesn't require that I say something correct or even smart or usefull i could say the stupidest uneducated crap from my rooftop and no one could deny me that right. So what do you do with a bad worker. If a job isn't earned then you could have the laziest worst worker in the country and if he comes to me and i have a job opening how can i deny his right to work? And if i'm not required to hire him, someone will be.
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
cost of living varys from region to region. Should people be granted enough to live regardless of where they live?
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
In order to enforce this you would have to force people to not only buy products, but buy them at a specific price. At the time almost 70% of Americans were employed in the farm industry, today less than 7%. If this "right" were granted then no farms would have gone out of buisiness and 70% of Americans would most likely still be farmers and the rest of us woul dbe in jail for not buying enough produce.
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
I agree with some aspects of anti-trust laws, but one glaring problem is the term abroad. Should America have the right to regulate forign buisinesses?
The right of every family to a decent home;
What exactly is a decent home? and two things again, remember that you don't have to earn a "right" so the laziest least qualified employee has the right to buy a nice home. And remember when i mentioned cost of living, a decent home in one nighborhood cost a hell of a lot more than in another. What if i want to live near the water (wich is where I currently live), should I have the right to t home there or would I be relocated to the midwest somewhere where homes are cheaper?
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
See the rest of this thread. And if i have the right to aceave good health then the government is going to have to exact a divine healing in my body, because currently even though i can afford medical care, I still suffer from daily pain because of a medical problem doctors can't fix well enough.
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
This one confuses me. i currently have no protection from unemployment because i don't pay into unemployment, but i do have protection against accidents because i pay into that.... i get what I pay for.
The right to a good education.
OK I do support vouchers so I guess I like this one.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:02 PM.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Doesn't the fact that the Founding Fathers set up rules for adding amendments to the Constitution prove that some things were meant to change?
No. It doesn't. It means things were allowed to be added to it.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:02 PM.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Doesn't the fact that the Founding Fathers set up rules for adding amendments to the Constitution prove that some things were meant to change?
Okay. Assuming you're correct, please tell us which Amendement delineated, for example, the "right" to free health care and when was it ratified by the states?
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-02-26 12:17 AM.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Doesn't the fact that the Founding Fathers set up rules for adding amendments to the Constitution prove that some things were meant to change?
No. It doesn't. It means things were allowed to be added to it.
To optimize, the added ammendments were never "meant" to contradict the formers.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:02 PM.
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Just a couple of weeks ago our Gov. Pawlenty said something about getting rid of the MN health plan & for people to either find jobs that provided decent health care or give up everything if they needed health care. While this made some Republicans cream their jeans it was brought up that it wouldn't necessarily save taxpayers money. Sick people with no money wait till the last minute to visit the Emergency room. By the time the bills are added up, Minnesota's could end up spending more money while increasing pain & misery. Wish he had said that while running for election!
WBAM, I strongly disagree with the assessment about a job being a privilege. My employers are very fortunate to have me working for them. They are not giving me anything that I haven't earned. They are good employers BTW & don't use or take advantage.
Fair play!
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Quote:
Pariah said:
To optimize, the added ammendments were never meant to contradict the formers.
what about the 21st amendment.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:02 PM.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
what about the 21st amendment.
That ammendment was repealing a former one that was not made by the Founding Fathers.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:03 PM.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
What I MEANT was that you have no direct influence on how your tax money is allocated.
Wich is why I said:
Quote:
I could (by way of government) restrict your right to eat fatty foods...
I know I don't have direct controll, but in theory i do have controll by way of my representitives and elected officials. So my question was, should I (the government) have the same level of say over how my tax money is spent in regards to keeping you healthy so that my money isn't wasted in the same way i have say over how my other tx dollers are spent? Right now a portion of my taxes goes towards paying for roads. even though i pay for the roads, I'm not allowed in the HOV lane without a passenger, because my elected officials have decided that would be the most efficient way to spend those dollers. Should my elected officials have the same say over how many Krispy Kreams you eat or how permiscues you are? Now stop dodging the issue and answer it.
added:
Sorry for being harsh, I realise that there may be a confusion because when I speak of my governments decisions I speak in the first person, because here in America I still have some say in how my government works and have a certain level of controll over thier accountability.
now, so do I,
but that's an indirect control, and not direct. Obviously I take part in the process of deciding who will sit in parliament. But electing the government is the province of the Primeminister, as I believe, it is for your president aswell (?)
now, in terms of influencing the government once it has taken office, that I cannot do. Other than respond to it's politics in the public forum, or simply walk up to the prime minister and say, "Listen Anders, what you're doing now, that stinks" (yes, I can do that) or something like that. Other than those options I have no way of influencing an elected government.
But tell me, do you really have any influence when it comes to allocating the tax funds?
Could Bush Jr. decide that Health care is a right, and the american people has to pay for it and then raise the taxes with, say, 2%?
I realize that it's THAT simple, but I think you take my meaning
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:03 PM.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Doesn't the fact that the Founding Fathers set up rules for adding amendments to the Constitution prove that some things were meant to change?
Okay. Assuming you're correct, please tell us which Amendement delineated, for example, the "right" to free health care and when was it ratified by the states?
What made you think I was talking about health care? I was merely addressing the question of whether or not our Consitution was meant to change, and in what capacity. Health care was in no way related to my comment.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Doesn't the fact that the Founding Fathers set up rules for adding amendments to the Constitution prove that some things were meant to change?
No. It doesn't. It means things were allowed to be added to it.
Doesn't adding to the Constitution change it in some way?
Quote:
To optimize, the added ammendments were never "meant" to contradict the formers.
A change in the Constitution doesn't necessarily have to mean that anything is getting contradicted or replaced.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:03 PM.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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"Laws.....rights.....we're the guys with the guns"
If you view the 27 amendments that we have, you can see that they are all a reflection of the times in which they made and whatvever people happen to be either bitching about or rallying behind.
The Constitution may be considered the supreme law of the land, but it all boils down to a group of people trying to live together.
So, you have to ask yourself, "Is it ok for the have-nots to get sick and die when they could be helped?" or "Is it ok for the haves to be forced to pay the tab for those who don't have?"
Understand, I'm not trying to belittle The USA or the values we hold. I just want it understood that laws are conceptual. You would be better off just following "the Golden Rule"
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I'm British, and I think that the NHS is the best medical system in the world. It's essentially free, works brilliantly, and aside from waiting lists (which are an exaggereated dilemma) it's essentially flawless.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:03 PM.
OOK OOK ACK EEK!
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Quote:
SpandexMonkeyMan said:
I'm British, and I think that the NHS is the best medical system in the world. It's essentially free, works brilliantly, and aside from waiting lists (which are an exaggereated dilemma) it's essentially flawless.
then how come you have a scalpel sewn inside your abdomen?
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:04 PM.
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The only bloody reason why my country, *gisp*  Denmark free Health Care is beacause we pay 41% of our wages to tax. Oh man I hate it, and thanks God that we have a liberal prime minister. When you pay so lot in tax like a do and the rest of citizen you except a couple of right in favor. But I just don't want to pay to much and get a lousy free Health care insureance. It stink because the doctors and the hospital down they are getting paid even when they have nothing to do at all. My own doctor seems not to care about when im Ill, and it hard to get a receipt at all, only you are really sick. To make things even worse a lot of the quality doctor, the really genius ones are spending all the time in reseach because it look oh so good on the CV when they are going to change job. If Denmark just scrap the free Health care insureance and there got a few company into the the country it would be far better. The point is, we must learn to pay for our Health care like the amerikans.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:04 PM.
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Could either G-man or Wednesday edit that post?
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Doesn't the fact that the Founding Fathers set up rules for adding amendments to the Constitution prove that some things were meant to change?
Quote:
the G-man said:
Okay. Assuming you're correct, please tell us which Amendement delineated, for example, the "right" to free health care and when was it ratified by the states?
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Darknight613 said:
What made you think I was talking about health care? I was merely addressing the question of whether or not our Consitution was meant to change, and in what capacity. Health care was in no way related to my comment.
I used health care for an example.
If you don't want to talk about health care, find any Amendment after the first ten that added a "right" to any sort of financial benefit.
In fact, point to any amdendment that creates any right at all. The only ones that come close are regarding voting rights and, in each of those cases, the intent was less about creating a right and more about clarifying who had the existing right.
The fact that there are none would tend to indicate an understanding that the Constitution may be an evolving document, but NOT one that evolved to create rights.
Most of the current "Rights" that people seem to want (health care being one example) are found no where in the constitution and, in fact, nothing even similar to them is found anywhere therein.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
socialism etc.
Do they pay you to frame arguments using loaded ideological phrases like "socialized medicine"?
Are you Jeff Gannon perchance?
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:04 PM.
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"mission accomplished" - George W. Bush May 2, 2003
It does not require a majority to prevail but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds". Samuel Adams said that. Pretty deep for a guy that makes beer for a living - The Boondocks
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Quote:
PaulWellr said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
socialism etc.
Do they pay you to frame arguments using loaded ideological phrases like "socialized medicine"?
Are you Jeff Gannon perchance?
Are you whomod or Animalman or perhaps r3x?
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:05 PM.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
socialism etc.
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PaulWellr said:
Do they pay you to frame arguments using loaded ideological phrases like "socialized medicine"?
Feel free to explain the difference between nationalized, government funded, medical treatment and socialized medicine.
I'm just calling a spade a spade.
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Are you Jeff Gannon perchance?
Keep your bald conservative commentators straight (no pun intended). I'm Liddy, not Gannon.
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G-Man is right.....end of story....and I for one don't ever want to have socialized medicine.
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Battlekruse said:
The only bloody reason why my country, *gisp* Denmark free Health Care is beacause we pay 51% of our wages to tax. Oh man I hate it, and thanks God that we have a liberal prime minister. When you pay so lot in tax like a do and the rest of citizen you except a couple of right in favor. But I just don't want to pay to much and get a lousy free Health care insureance. It stink because the doctors and the hospital down they are getting paid even when they have nothing to do at all. My own doctor seems not to care about when im Ill, and it hard to get a receipt at all, only you are really sick. To make things even worse a lot of the quality doctor, the really genius ones are spending all the time in reseach because it look oh so good on the CV when they are going to change job. If Denmark just scrap the free Health care insureance and there got a few company into the the country it would be far better. The point is, we must learn to pay for our Health care like the amerikans.
no, no we don't
our current tax rate is at an average of 41%
and if it does come to the point where we'll have to pay for our health care, well......
The reason we have this system is so that noone will have to suffer because they can't afford proper health care.
Besides, it's all well and good to claim that you don't want to have the current health care, but the minute you need it, then you'll be screaming to get what you didn't want for free.
it's happened before, and it will happen again!
(og det ved du også godt!)
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:05 PM.
Racks be to MisterJLA
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Darknight613 said:
Doesn't adding to the Constitution change it in some way?
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A change in the Constitution doesn't necessarily have to mean that anything is getting contradicted or replaced.
The fact that you used these two statements in the same post made me laugh.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:05 PM.
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Chant said:
Besides, it's all well and good to claim that you don't want to have the current health care, but the minute you need it, then you'll be screaming to get what you didn't want for free.
You never really know if you couldn't actually handle lack of Healthcare when you're spending 41% of your wages on its "free" presence.
That is just insane.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:05 PM.
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A slight digression here...
You often hear that "socialist" European nations have very little poverty.
However, a fair amount of that is attributable to the fact that they define poverty differently than we do.
Many "middle class" Europeans have less than our "poor"
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:05 PM.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
[True, but there are some people who are offended by teh use of the Lord's name in vain even though we don't complain openly. I'm not going to tell you what to say or not, but consider that some people are offended before being flip about it.
We're all big boys and girls here. If stuff like that bugs you, good lord, this is the wrong place for you to post.
And I've known plenty of godfearing people who tossed out "goddamnit" and "Jesus Christ" without a second thought. Yeah, I know, they weren't real Christians, yadda yadda. Let it go.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:06 PM.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
[Socialized medicine doesn't mean the poor will get the same treatment that the rich currently enjoys, it means the rich will get the same treatment the poor currently enjoys.
That's one theory, yes. To me, that's more an indictment of the medical profession than it is the right to health care.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
[True, but there are some people who are offended by teh use of the Lord's name in vain even though we don't complain openly. I'm not going to tell you what to say or not, but consider that some people are offended before being flip about it.
We're all big boys and girls here.
Which one are you?
to defend Jim here.....I was just kidding with him for that whole Lord's Name in Vain thing.....I know he didn't mean anything by it......I consider myself a good Christian and sometimes I slip up too.....I always ask for forgiveness later but I messed up nevertheless.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Doesn't the fact that the Founding Fathers set up rules for adding amendments to the Constitution prove that some things were meant to change?
Quote:
the G-man said:
Okay. Assuming you're correct, please tell us which Amendement delineated, for example, the "right" to free health care and when was it ratified by the states?
Quote:
Darknight613 said:
What made you think I was talking about health care? I was merely addressing the question of whether or not our Consitution was meant to change, and in what capacity. Health care was in no way related to my comment.
I used health care for an example.
That's not what it sounded like.
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If you don't want to talk about health care, find any Amendment after the first ten that added a "right" to any sort of financial benefit.
Once again, "I was merely addressing the question of whether or not our Consitution was meant to change, and in what capacity." That's it. It had nothing to do with health care, or anything financial, or any one specific issue. It was a general question unrelated to any one specific issue as part of a discussion about whether or not our Constitution was meant to change.
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In fact, point to any amdendment that creates any right at all. The only ones that come close are regarding voting rights and, in each of those cases, the intent was less about creating a right and more about clarifying who had the existing right.
I assume "any amdendment" means we're including the first ten now?
The second amendment:
"The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
The fourth amendment:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated"
The sixth amendment:
"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."
I don't get why you don't consider any of these to be rights. If they're not rights, then what are they?
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Most of the current "Rights" that people seem to want (health care being one example) are found no where in the constitution and, in fact, nothing even similar to them is found anywhere therein.
So? Why does that mean that some of the rights they want can't be added to the Constitution, or to the constitutions of the states where they live, reagrdles of whether there's anything similar already existing?
Last edited by Darknight613; 2005-02-26 9:13 PM.
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Actually, the framers were very explicit that the first ten amendments did not create rights. They simply recognized them and said that they shouldn't be abridged or violated.
Furthermore, none of those are examples of what I asked for, to wit, "the 'right' to a financial benefit."
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You're splitting hairs, don't you think?
I could make the argument that having a national defense provides a financial benefit to each and every U.S. citizen.
Does the Constitution explicitly say that the Framers have defined all potential rights and that their list is exhaustive?
Rights of Blacks were recognized formally in amendments to the Constitution and one can easily argue that these rights provided a financial benefit to Blacks.
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