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in most European countries health care is a right.
why can't it be so in the US?
it's a very good idea!
Last edited by Wednesday; 2005-02-25 6:34 PM.
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No it isn't, and I don't want to get into that. Start your own thread if you want to discuss that.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 1:52 PM.
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Quote:
rex said:
Discuss.
Quote:
Chant said:
in most European countries health care is a right.
why can't it be so in the US?
it's a very good idea!
Quote:
rex said:
No it isn't, and I don't want to get into that. Start your own thread if you want to discuss that.
silly lad.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 1:52 PM.
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Quote:
rex said:
No it isn't, and I don't want to get into that. Start your own thread if you want to discuss that.
Elaborate!
why isn't it a good idea?
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 1:53 PM.
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Quote:
Chant said:
in most European countries health care is a right.
why can't it be so in the US?
it's a very good idea!
the healthcare in Europe is shit....that's why when people in Greece and Italy get sick they come to New York City for treatment.......I'll pass on that right .....thanks.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-02-25 6:11 PM.
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heh, Greece and Italy, it's not like they represent Europe!
Great Britain, Scandinavia, Germany, France.
All these nations are good examples of great health care in Europe. Where Healthcare is a right!
and why is it a right you ask?
what would be a better question is, why isn't it a right?
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 1:53 PM.
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I used Greece and Italy as examples because I happen to know alot of people from there...............but the next biggest group I see falling over themselves to come over here are people from Denmark!
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no they're not, that group is kinda small.
but let me ask you again, why shouldn't health care be a right?
should we just let people who are in need, but can't pay, suffer?
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there are programs for those people......you want to make healthcare better and more affordable stop all the frivolous law suits that helped make scum like John Edwards a millionaire many times over.
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heh, fortunately we have no such law suits here, so no problem.
We do, however, have free health care. So should any of you ever come to Denmark, get hit by a car, you won't have to worry about health insurance.
Dental health care however, is another story all together
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Is that why all European women have bad breath and yellow teeth? 
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The argument about what is or isn't a right continues today.
So many people...too many...feel that we're supposed to stay locked in to the world view that the Founding Fathers held, regardless of all the scientific, social, and political changes wrought since then.
The Founding Fathers gave us a Constitution and provided us with a means to change how we govern ourselves through the Amendment Process. The FF would be saddened, I think, if they could see us trying to so rigidly hold on to the past.
Is health care a right? I don't know, but I know there is nothing inherently wrong or antithetical to the American way of self-government for us to discuss that issue.
My personal opinion is that health care should be a right. We call ourselves and think ourselves the greatest nation on the planet. We champion our love for peace, freedom, family, sprituality, plurality, and ingenuity. To that end, I think that if we are as great as we say we are, NO ONE in the United States should be denied adequate health care. No one should be forced to go into debt or financial risk in order to take advantage of the best medical treatment on the planet. No one should have to decide "do I make my car payment or do I pay for this medicine I need."
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Quote:
PJP said:
Is that why all European women have bad breath and yellow teeth?
naaah, that's just British, German and French women
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
The Founding Fathers gave us a Constitution and provided us with a means to change how we govern ourselves through the Amendment Process. The FF would be saddened, I think, if they could see us trying to so rigidly hold on to the past.
Just because the principles are old doesn't mean they're not rock-solid. They weren't meant to change, and what's more, you can't prove they were. You also can't say what the Founding Fathers would say in response to the present.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
The Founding Fathers gave us a Constitution and provided us with a means to change how we govern ourselves through the Amendment Process. The FF would be saddened, I think, if they could see us trying to so rigidly hold on to the past.
Just because the principles are old doesn't mean they're not rock-solid. They weren't meant to change, and what's more, you can't prove they were.
Doesn't the fact that the Founding Fathers set up rules for adding amendments to the Constitution prove that some things were meant to change?
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 1:55 PM.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Is health care a right? I don't know, but I know there is nothing inherently wrong or antithetical to the American way of self-government for us to discuss that issue.
My personal opinion is that health care should be a right. We call ourselves and think ourselves the greatest nation on the planet. We champion our love for peace, freedom, family, sprituality, plurality, and ingenuity. To that end, I think that if we are as great as we say we are, NO ONE in the United States should be denied adequate health care. No one should be forced to go into debt or financial risk in order to take advantage of the best medical treatment on the planet. No one should have to decide "do I make my car payment or do I pay for this medicine I need."
Agreed.
I know that there are problems with healthcare in other countries where it actually is a right, but I also think that it's worth the effort to try and find a way to make it work and fix the problems.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 1:55 PM.
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Quote:
PJP said:
there are programs for those people......
How well do those programs work?
Quote:
you want to make healthcare better and more affordable stop all the frivolous law suits that helped make scum like John Edwards a millionaire many times over.
Granted that there are many frivolous lawsuits, what about the ones that aren't frivolous? There are patients out there with legitimate grounds for lawsuits.
If a doctor screws up while treating a patient and the consequences are serious, especially financially, isn't the patient entitled to recompense to help pay for whatever is needed to undo whatever damage is caused by the doctor's screw-up?
Many people I talk to seem to think that the only malpractice suits that are out there are frivolous, and none of them consider the fact that maybe some of them actually have a case.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 1:56 PM.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Just because the principles are old doesn't mean they're not rock-solid. They weren't meant to change, and what's more, you can't prove they were. You also can't say what the Founding Fathers would say in response to the present.
The Founding Fathers, by giving us the Amendment Process, gave us the ability to change how we govern ourselves; e.g., through that process, Blacks' rights were recognized as a matter of law. What else needs to be said to this end?
They didn't explicitly say "Health care is not a right." So therefore, it's up for debate and consideration in the here-and-now.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Doesn't the fact that the Founding Fathers set up rules for adding amendments to the Constitution prove that some things were meant to change?
I would agree with the general tenor of your remark, except that things were meant to change, but that things were permitted to change if the people see fit to enact a change or a reinterpretation.
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what would be a better question is, why isn't it a right?
Rights allow you to do for yourself. "Rights" should never force others to do for you. Healthcare is not a right because other people have to pay for it. Then that raises the bigger question if others have to pay for your healthcare should they be able to restrict what you eat or what activities you do. You've gotten yourself a catch 22 there either you can do anything you want in your persoanl life. eat fatty foods or salt. watch TV instead of excersise, have unprotected sex, drive a motorcycle, Go out in the rain when it's cold, associate with sick people, mountain climb, skydive. Then I (who hypothetically does none of the above) should have to pay for the consequenses of all your bad decisions. OR since your health is now my responsibility , I should have a say in how you take care of yourself. I could (by way of government) restrict your right to eat fatty foods impose manditory excercise times. Make laws that require you be monogomous, restrict foods that could be cacinigens, like cofee. That to me however sounds like it would impede on your......rights.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
what would be a better question is, why isn't it a right?
Rights allow you to do for yourself. "Rights" should never force others to do for you. Healthcare is not a right because other people have to pay for it.
Paying for something has nothing to do with a right.
I am constitutionally guaranteed a right to counsel even if I cannot afford to pay for it.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
what would be a better question is, why isn't it a right?
Rights allow you to do for yourself. "Rights" should never force others to do for you. Healthcare is not a right because other people have to pay for it. Then that raises the bigger question if others have to pay for your healthcare should they be able to restrict what you eat or what activities you do. You've gotten yourself a catch 22 there either you can do anything you want in your persoanl life. eat fatty foods or salt. watch TV instead of excersise, have unprotected sex, drive a motorcycle, Go out in the rain when it's cold, associate with sick people, mountain climb, skydive. Then I (who hypothetically does none of the above) should have to pay for the consequenses of all your bad decisions. OR since your health is now my responsibility , I should have a say in how you take care of yourself. I could (by way of government) restrict your right to eat fatty foods impose manditory excercise times. Make laws that require you be monogomous, restrict foods that could be cacinigens, like cofee. That to me however sounds like it would impede on your......rights.
Normally I wouldn't say this, but, you sir, are being foolish!
You pay taxes, these taxes go to pay for your military and stuff. I seriously doubt you have any say in what the US military does, and yet you pay for it anyway!
And yes, it IS the same thing
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well, maybe not foolish, but you ARE ignoring the other factors involved in the matter
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
what would be a better question is, why isn't it a right?
Rights allow you to do for yourself. "Rights" should never force others to do for you.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
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Quote:
PaulWellr said:
Quote:
rex said:
Discuss.
Quote:
Chant said:
in most European countries health care is a right.
why can't it be so in the US?
it's a very good idea!
Quote:
rex said:
No it isn't, and I don't want to get into that. Start your own thread if you want to discuss that.
silly lad.
Why couldn't you start your own thread? Seriously. Do you not know how to?
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Pariah said:
Just because the principles are old doesn't mean they're not rock-solid. They weren't meant to change, and what's more, you can't prove they were. You also can't say what the Founding Fathers would say in response to the present.
"There should be a revolution every 20 years."-Thomas Jefferson.
Interesting Read on FDR's Second Bill of Rights.
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r3x29yz4a said:
Interesting Read on FDR's Second Bill of Rights.
That's why he's my favorite.
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Quote:
Normally I wouldn't say this, but, you sir, are being foolish!
You pay taxes, these taxes go to pay for your military and stuff. I seriously doubt you have any say in what the US military does, and yet you pay for it anyway!
And yes, it IS the same thing
Acctually I DO (in the same manner that I mentioned before through government and my elected officials) have a say in what my military does. The Legislature (my elected officials) had to vote to aprove going to war requested by teh commander in chief (whome I also have a say in every four years) That same electd official has to get his military budget approved by my representitives. So the government controlls the military and i elect teh government. Should the government have the same controll over decisions you make in regards to your health?
Now next time perhaps you should issue a direct challenge to my assertion rather than just insult me, calling me foolish or suggesting that I don't know what I'm talking about, because it makes you look all the more foolish when your claim turns out to be false. You could do what J and W, did and provide a direct challenge to what I said, wich i will now address.
When I made my blanket statement i was wrong to a degree, in that I was thinking about rights not specifically sited in the constitution. I think the right to councel is an exception because it's protecting you from having done to you by others or by the government. You're presumed innocent at the time of recieving council so the government has to see that you are protected before acting against you. The government is choosing to act against you so they have to incure the costs in doing so and one of those costs is you being represented. I have needed a lawer before, but not because i was being preosecuted, but to protect my own intrests, but since the government wasn't acting against me didn't have the right to a lawer so I had to pay him myself. If you aren't being prossecuted or if there the government isn't seeking to prosecute you, you don't get a free lawer.
In regards to health care it's a personal coice.. What level of health care should you be guarrenteed? Do the rich have the "right" to the quality of healthcare they currently recieve? because with socialized medicine the quality of healthcare suffers and hence the rich will be denied the level of healthcare they currently recieve, or should everyone recieve the same level of healthcare that the richest citizens currently recieve? What if I don't like or agree with modern conventional theories of healthcare. What if I would prefer to go to a holistic healer or a D.O. or an accupuncturist, or a shamaan or faith healer for that matter do i not have the right to recieve the specific type of healthcare I prefer or should all those things be subsidized by the government and paid for by you?
Highlights from the above post for the attention challenged among us.
Acctually I DO ... have a say in what my military does.
the government controlls the military and i elect teh government. Should the government have the same controll over decisions you make in regards to your health?
I think the right to councel is an exception because it's protecting you from having done to you by others or by the government.
What level of health care should you be guarrenteed?
What if I don't like or agree with modern conventional theories of healthcare ... do i not have the right to recieve the specific type of healthcare I prefer or should all those things be subsidized by the government and paid for by you?
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Interesting Read on FDR's Second Bill of Rights.
That's why he's my favorite.
And this is whayy I think he's highly overrated, asside from teh following essentially spelling out socialism many are flawed on a more specific level:
The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.
I have to go, but i'll be back later to go into each specifically, but I wanted everyone so see what y'all were so excited about and see if they can find the inherant flaws in each of the above "rights".
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All human processes are flawed in some manner. No human endeavor is perfect.
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Quote:
Chant said:
in most European countries health care is a right.
why can't it be so in the US?
it's a very good idea!
the idea is great. but in practice over here ... i dunno.
those european countries also have other restrictions or laws that make having a right to healthcare a little easier; there are also entirely different mentalities in the people, and in the leaders, that set different standards. its an entirely different way of thinking.
above and beyond that, there are tens of millions more people in the united states than any european country. similarly, to my knowledge, the US population is expanding faster than any of those european countries -- both through legal and illegal means.
all of which leads to the unavoidable summation that there are more scumbags over here -- those who would readily take advantage of any "free" opportunity offered. and thats not just referring to the people taking advantage from the bottom of the pile -- those on top are just as wrong.
too much abuse, too many lawyers, too much greed... i don't know how free healthcare could even be maintained.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Interesting Read on FDR's Second Bill of Rights.
That's why he's my favorite.
And this is whayy I think he's highly overrated, asside from teh following essentially spelling out socialism many are flawed on a more specific level:
The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.
I have to go, but i'll be back later to go into each specifically, but I wanted everyone so see what y'all were so excited about and see if they can find the inherant flaws in each of the above "rights".
If there is any flaw in these Rights, it's that they're overly idealistic. I agree with and support all of them, but I don't know how we could realistically implement them.
Other than that, I don't see anything wrong with them.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 1:58 PM.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
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Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618 |
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
And this is whayy I think he's highly overrated
Of course you do. You're a Republican.
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
asside from teh following essentially spelling out socialism many are flawed on a more specific level:
Any sort of government regulation can be labelled "spelling out socialism".
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I have to go, but i'll be back later to go into each specifically, but I wanted everyone so see what y'all were so excited about and see if they can find the inherant flaws in each of the above "rights".
Yes, please do.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 1:58 PM.
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Posts: 2,949
2500+ posts
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2500+ posts
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Posts: 2,949 |
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
And this is whayy I think he's highly overrated
Of course you do. You're a Republican.
I wondered how long it would take before this thread turned partisan.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 1:59 PM.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
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Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618 |
This thread's been partisan since post #1.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 1:59 PM.
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6000+ posts
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6000+ posts
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Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
Wednesday said:
This thread's been partisan since post #1.
But not to the degree of dismissing someones views based olely on thier political affiliation.
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 1:59 PM.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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6000+ posts
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Jesus Christ, people, you're derailing the thread!!!!
We're all doomed if you keep this up!!!!!!!!
Aieeeee!
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:00 PM.
We all wear a green carnation.
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We already are 15000+ posts
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We already are 15000+ posts
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Jim......you will never make mod with that attitude! 
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:00 PM.
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Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1
We already are 15000+ posts
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We already are 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1 |
....oh and don't take the Lord's Name in vain please...Thanks!
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-03-22 2:00 PM.
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