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And for the record, I know it's actually Denmark. 
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
And for the record, I know it's actually Denmark.
I know you know, that's why it's below the belt 
Now, I am trying my best, but I think that none of you understand how hard it is to argue religion when you are virtually alone against a bunch of religious people.
You might say it's the same thing with politics. It isn't, it really isn't.
And my problem is that the minute I say anything one of you doesn't like, I'm being gunned down, not a rebuttal, but gunned down.
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Dk said: It's not about one faith being right for everyone. It's about one faith being right for us.
I disagree! It IS about being one faith FOR EVERYONE! What about the whiping out of the pagan tribes in the Promised Land?? Especially when God instructed Joshua to annilate the Jebusites, Hittites, the Perizzites and I know I'm missing some more. Anyways, after they whiped out the main pagan tribes each tribe was allotted their land by Joshua and TOLD to annialiate the people there. But did they obey God? NO, so the Angel of the Lord appeared to them in Judges 2 and said, "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers. I said, 'I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.' Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this? 3 Now therefore I tell you that I will not drive them out before you; they will be thorns in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you.""
Notice God seperates Himself from the other "gods" of the culture. If "It's not about one faith being right for everyone. It's about one faith being right for us", then why were the pagan tribes judged by the Lord Almighty? Why were the Israelites instructed to wipe them out? Sure God judged both the Israelits AND the pagans but if God only cared about the Jewish people and their faith, why did he send Jonah to preach to the Gentile city of Nineveh?
The Bible seperates itself from any other book in that there is only ONE way to heaven, ONE faith, and ONE book that reveals the mind of God. Anyone in Scripture who chose to not follow the Lord was judged in one way or another (like in Isaiah when God again judges the pagan community for their evils (Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc).
Now if you consider both parts of the Old and New Testmant, salvation is by GRACE not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9). You can't work your way to heaven at all! You believe in Jesus Christ like Romans 10:9 says and are saved period. What other religion says salvation by grace?
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Quote:
Chant said:
Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
And for the record, I know it's actually Denmark.
I know you know, that's why it's below the belt
Now, I am trying my best, but I think that none of you understand how hard it is to argue religion when you are virtually alone against a bunch of religious people.
You might say it's the same thing with politics. It isn't, it really isn't.
And my problem is that the minute I say anything one of you doesn't like, I'm being gunned down, not a rebuttal, but gunned down.
Well if you didn't want an advisarial debate perhaps you should have excluded the phrase:
Quote:
People are basically stupid and will believe anything you put before them as long as they want to believe. Or if they are afraid that something they've thought of as truth might be a lie
from your 1st post on the debate. Frankly I like to discuss these issues on a rational basis, but it's phrases like that that made me steer clear (for the most part) from this thread, because it seemed like your side was just intent on bashing rather than discussing. That seems to happen alot lately. Perhaps you should look in the mirror before decrying the tone and tennor of the debate you're in.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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...
Don't get me started on this.
He fixes the cable?
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TK-069 said:
...
Don't get me started on this.
OK, I won't
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Heh... my mom, every time I try to discuss religion with her (just because she enjoys a good argument from time to time and I don't mind occasionally obliging) she ends up saying that she's right "because it says so in the Bible." And I say "not everyone believes in the Bible as being from god." And she stands indignant "No, it is the truth of the word of God. They're wrong if they don't believe in it."
Infuriating and entertaining.
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It's circular logic is what it is.
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
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To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
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well, you either believe or you don't, but you have to atleast be able to back it up with something or you sound silly at a minimum...
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And I was like all proud of my Christianity analysis and nobody said anything 'bout it  It's not circular logic either :P
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PrincessElisa said:
And I was like all proud of my Christianity analysis and nobody said anything 'bout it It's not circular logic either :P
I thought it was well put and I agree, but because I agree I didn't really feel a need to add to it.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
PrincessElisa said:
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Dk said: It's not about one faith being right for everyone. It's about one faith being right for us.
I disagree! It IS about being one faith FOR EVERYONE! What about the whiping out of the pagan tribes in the Promised Land?? Especially when God instructed Joshua to annilate the Jebusites, Hittites, the Perizzites and I know I'm missing some more. Anyways, after they whiped out the main pagan tribes each tribe was allotted their land by Joshua and TOLD to annialiate the people there. But did they obey God? NO, so the Angel of the Lord appeared to them in Judges 2 and said, "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers. I said, 'I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.' Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this? 3 Now therefore I tell you that I will not drive them out before you; they will be thorns in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you.""
Notice God seperates Himself from the other "gods" of the culture. If "It's not about one faith being right for everyone. It's about one faith being right for us", then why were the pagan tribes judged by the Lord Almighty? Why were the Israelites instructed to wipe them out? Sure God judged both the Israelits AND the pagans but if God only cared about the Jewish people and their faith, why did he send Jonah to preach to the Gentile city of Nineveh?
The Bible seperates itself from any other book in that there is only ONE way to heaven, ONE faith, and ONE book that reveals the mind of God. Anyone in Scripture who chose to not follow the Lord was judged in one way or another (like in Isaiah when God again judges the pagan community for their evils (Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc).
Now if you consider both parts of the Old and New Testmant, salvation is by GRACE not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9). You can't work your way to heaven at all! You believe in Jesus Christ like Romans 10:9 says and are saved period. What other religion says salvation by grace?
I sort of disagree with that..it depends on what you mean by saved..as in "once saved always saved"..I don't buy that...
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Sorry I didn't get to this sooner.
Quote:
PrincessElisa said:
Quote:
Dk said: It's not about one faith being right for everyone. It's about one faith being right for us.
I disagree! It IS about being one faith FOR EVERYONE! What about the whiping out of the pagan tribes in the Promised Land?? Especially when God instructed Joshua to annilate the Jebusites, Hittites, the Perizzites and I know I'm missing some more. Anyways, after they whiped out the main pagan tribes each tribe was allotted their land by Joshua and TOLD to annialiate the people there. But did they obey God? NO, so the Angel of the Lord appeared to them in Judges 2 and said, "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers. I said, 'I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.' Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this? 3 Now therefore I tell you that I will not drive them out before you; they will be thorns in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you.""
Idolatry was not permitted within the land of Israel when the law of Judiasm was the law of the land. Israel was meant to be a land reserved for the practice of Judaism alone. However, we were not supposed to wipe paganism off the face of the earth or convert anyone to Judiasm. If a community outside the land of Israel wanted to worship idols, that was between them and G-d. Within Israel, that's when it became our problem.
BTW, since our exile from Israel, (the current state of Israel is a secular one, so we're still in exile until the Moshiach - Messiah - comes) this rule is not currently in effect. Were Jews to use violence against non-Jews in Israel or try to expel them by force, it would be considered a sin, rather than a good deed.
Quote:
Notice God seperates Himself from the other "gods" of the culture. If "It's not about one faith being right for everyone. It's about one faith being right for us", then why were the pagan tribes judged by the Lord Almighty? Why were the Israelites instructed to wipe them out? Sure God judged both the Israelits AND the pagans but if God only cared about the Jewish people and their faith, why did he send Jonah to preach to the Gentile city of Nineveh?
I think you misunderstood what I meant by Judaism being right for us. I meant that Judiasm is right for Jews, and other religions are right for their practitioners.
As for why pagan tribes are also judged and punished for their misdeeds, there were some rules that were given just to the Jews, and some that were given to everyone (prohibition on murder, theft, sexual immorality). If a society collectively broke rules that was given to everyone, they'd be punished for it. It wasn't about not following the Torah, because the Torah is only meant for Jews to follow. Non-Jews have no obligation to follow the Torah (check out my Judaism 101 thread for details).
And I NEVER said that G-d doesn't care about non-Jews.
Quote:
The Bible seperates itself from any other book in that there is only ONE way to heaven, ONE faith, and ONE book that reveals the mind of God. Anyone in Scripture who chose to not follow the Lord was judged in one way or another (like in Isaiah when God again judges the pagan community for their evils (Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc).
Again, not following the Lord most likely meant that they were punished for generic evil rather than not following the Torah.
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Now if you consider both parts of the Old and New Testmant...
You're no doubt aware that the New Testament isn't part of Judaism, so certain Christian beliefs won't be part of the Jewish mindset. Regardless, I'm not familiar with what the New Testament says, so I can't comment on it.
Last edited by Darknight613; 2005-03-29 12:27 AM.
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Quote:
PrincessElisa said:
Quote:
Dk said: It's not about one faith being right for everyone. It's about one faith being right for us.
I disagree! It IS about being one faith FOR EVERYONE! What about the whiping out of the pagan tribes in the Promised Land?? Especially when God instructed Joshua to annilate....
There's nothing wrong with your religion being the one faith for everyone until you start taking away peoples' rights to decide for their damn selves. I really have a hard time thinking that such a great god is gonna command his followers to annihilate ANY of his other people that he created. He would want them saved. Not killed. And I think that, according to what I remember from previous instruction, part of the reason the religion isn't the one religion for everyone is because we have a choice and sometimes the christian choice seems silly. Spiritual growth is, IMO, the important thing, not who's face is stamped on your prayer. Seeing as how people in different - and even identical - cultures have such different minds, beliefs, traditions, paramounts, ideas, etc, I find it hard to buy that one religion could possibly satisfy everyone's faith needs. Nature and nurture make everyone different and clearly one god doesn't suffice for the world of individuals.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
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"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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A "Theory" is nothing more than an explanation of known facts...when and if the facts change, the theory would be expected to change. Therefore, any proposed "Theory" that is not supported by known facts is to be rejected. However, support for any one theory does not
automatically lead to a rejection of a second or even a third if those
theories are also supported by the facts.
Facts, not interpetations, are the basis for evaluation. An open and
curious mind and a regard for truth are still the basis for good science.
Media coverage and political support are not.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
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DK, I have a problem with most of your post regarding the Old Testament, but this stands out the most for me.
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Darknight613 said:
I think you misunderstood what I meant by Judaism being right for us. I meant that Judiasm is right for Jews, and other religions are right for their practitioners.
When you get right down to it, the majority of the world is related to the Jews.
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Pariah said:
DK, I have a problem with most of your post regarding the Old Testament, but this stands out the most for me.
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Darknight613 said:
I think you misunderstood what I meant by Judaism being right for us. I meant that Judiasm is right for Jews, and other religions are right for their practitioners.
When you get right down to it, the majority of the world is related to the Jews.
No offense, but I think you're once again reading more into my posts than what's actually there.
Regardless, you mind clarifying your point so I know how best to respond? 'Cause I don't understand what point you're trying to make.
Last edited by Darknight613; 2005-04-04 9:16 PM.
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Yous said Judaism is the correct religion for the Jews. An inclination that it's the only religion they should adhere to. This is said whilst knowing that many of the Christians in the world are descended from Jews.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Yous said Judaism is the correct religion for the Jews. An inclination that it's the only religion they should adhere to. This is said whilst knowing that many of the Christians in the world are descended from Jews.
Ah, I see what you're getting at.
Rest assured that I was not taking a swipe at Christians, if that's what you were thinking. You guys have a faith of your own, and if you think it's the right faith for you to follow, go for it. As long as you're a good person and you follow the Seven Laws of Noah that were given to all mankind (which are very easy to follow), you and G-d have no problem, according to Judiasm (and according to personal opinion).
(You may want to see my post about how Jews view non-Jews in my Judaism 101 thread).
The way I see it, religion is all about how a person wants to connect with G-d, and that's something that everybody has to do in their own way. So as I said way back in this thread, whatever faith an individual person feels is the right faith to follow, that is the right faith for that individual person. Judaism is right for me, Christianity is right for you, other religions or aetheism is right path for others, etc. This is what I've been getting at all along.
Have I finally made myself clear to everyone?
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Quote:
Dk said:
The way I see it, religion is all about how a person wants to connect with G-d, and that's something that everybody has to do in their own way. So as I said way back in this thread, whatever faith an individual person feels is the right faith to follow, that is the right faith for that individual person. Judaism is right for me, Christianity is right for you, other religions or aetheism is right path for others, etc. This is what I've been getting at all along.
Isn't that awfully uniterian sounding? All religious beliefs lead to the same place: heaven?
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Quote:
Uschi said:
There's nothing wrong with your religion being the one faith for everyone until you start taking away peoples' rights to decide for their damn selves. I really have a hard time thinking that such a great god is gonna command his followers to annihilate ANY of his other people that he created. He would want them saved.
The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. There's no inconsistency here. Plus, he does want people saved. I don't recall an event in history where people were wiped out by God's hand who weren't given a choice to follow Christianity/Judaism. Whether they were the one's judged by a miraculous happening or an earthly medium doesn't make much difference; they were given a choice, and they picked the wrong one.
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned this or not but the Bible and Christianity have actually borrowed a lot of stuff from pagan myth.
For instance, almost every ancient culture has a "flood story" where God or the gods punish mankind for becomming sinful, corrupt, a nuisance, etc. Mesopotamian mythology has a story similar to the "Moses in the bullrushes." There are several other overlaps in the Old Testament, but I can't remeber them all b/c it has been like seven years since I was in my religion class (at a Baptist college no-less, not a secular university).
Furthermore, almost every Christian tradition was incorporated by the early church to help Christianity to become more popular and spread more easily. Easter was originally the spring fertility festival to the mesopotamian goddess Ishtar. That's why we paint eggs and eat chocolate bunnies; they are all fertility symbols.
Christmas is also an adaptation of a Roman festival. December 22nd is the shortest day of the year, but you can't actually percieve the days gettting longer until Dec 25th. On this day the Romans celebrated the "Birth of the Sun" by exchanging gifts to one another. Change the "u" to an "o" and you've got Christmas. The actual symbols for Christmas (e.g. the Tree, mistletoe, etc) are all adaptations of Germanic folklore that preserve pagan traditions within a Christian context.
Finally, several of the early Catholic saints and holy site in Europe were Christinization of local dieties and holy sites. So, In a very realy way Christianity itself is an amalgum of a variety of folklore throughout Europe and the Middle East.
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Quote:
Randal_Flagg said:
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this or not but the Bible and Christianity have actually borrowed a lot of stuff from pagan myth.
Yes. We did. Please review.
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For instance, almost every ancient culture has a "flood story" where God or the gods punish mankind for becomming sinful, corrupt, a nuisance, etc. Mesopotamian mythology has a story similar to the "Moses in the bullrushes." There are several other overlaps in the Old Testament, but I can't remeber them all b/c it has been like seven years since I was in my religion class (at a Baptist college no-less, not a secular university).
You're going to have to provide sources if you want to argue this point. Especially since scientists have actually put forth evidence of a world-wide flood which remains in sync(sp) with Christian dogma.
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Furthermore, almost every Christian tradition was incorporated by the early church to help Christianity to become more popular and spread more easily. Easter was originally the spring fertility festival to the mesopotamian goddess Ishtar. That's why we paint eggs and eat chocolate bunnies; they are all fertility symbols.
As I said before, neither Catholicsim or any other sects of Christianity adopted those traditions. They didn't start them, they've never endorsed them as actually being apart of the real meaning of the holiday. That's commercialism shelling out to Christians, not Christians shelling out to society. Easter has always been the day that Christ died, not when a rabbit broke into our houses while we slept.
This is just another case of that, except it was centuries ago:
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Christmas is also an adaptation of a Roman festival. December 22nd is the shortest day of the year, but you can't actually percieve the days gettting longer until Dec 25th. On this day the Romans celebrated the "Birth of the Sun" by exchanging gifts to one another. Change the "u" to an "o" and you've got Christmas. The actual symbols for Christmas (e.g. the Tree, mistletoe, etc) are all adaptations of Germanic folklore that preserve pagan traditions within a Christian context.
As I said previously in the thread, the trees mean nothing to us. Only Christ's birth does. It's all about intent. Saying that the traditions make us pagans whilst not actually referencing the reason we celebrate the holiday is fallacious. FYI: Gift giving is a way of showing generosity for the sake of Christ's wishes.
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Finally, several of the early Catholic saints and holy site in Europe were Christinization of local dieties and holy sites. So, In a very realy way Christianity itself is an amalgum of a variety of folklore throughout Europe and the Middle East.
You're gonna have to explain this one too.
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Alright, fair enough. Later!
Last edited by Randal_Flagg; 2005-05-03 11:22 PM.
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Quote:
Randal_Flagg said:
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this or not but the Bible and Christianity have actually borrowed a lot of stuff from pagan myth.
There are a couple traditions that are part of our Jewish holidays that I've heard unofficial speculation regarding possible pagan inspiration for those traditions (like the waving of the lulav and etrog on Sukkot). I don't know if it's true, but it's not impossible. After all, Sukkot is mentioned in the Torah, but the rules for what to do during the holiday are not. That all comes from oral and rabbinic law.
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