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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Actually many Christians are fine with gay marriage & homosexuality in general.
No they're not.
Last edited by Batwoman; 2005-05-16 5:00 AM.
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Actually many Christians are fine with gay marriage & homosexuality in general.
Actually. Many Christians are Christians.
Quote:
klinton said:
CHURCHES HAVE NO PLACE IN DEFINING PUBLIC POLICY....and even less place in diagnosing mental conditions (demonic possesions, anyone?). Sorry, but it's just the way it is. Faith is private thing. And if it makes your life better, power to you. But my relationship with God is none of your concern. Nor your church's.
Your raving and senseless rant aside, I didn't bring up anything regarding my religous views on this subject once--Except to denote the fact that I was distancing myself from arguments with them as a basis.
Quote:
Not all psychologists will agree with me, no. But the vast majority does. The few crackpots that subscribe to your line of thinking are few and far between. The ones that are respected in thier field are even more of an anomaly.
A vast majority....And a few crackpots....That's great. That's fuckin' great--You roll with that.
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Quote:
klinton said:
And I thought I asked you not to speak to me again. I meant that.
Get off your high horse
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There are gay penguin couples.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
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and.....
I read that article you posted and one thing you fail to note, the zoo workers that noticed this found it odd that those same couples didn't have little penguins. It wasn't until they spent a lot of time trying things out that they figured out why, since penguins have no outword genetic signs. They then put those same penguins with ones of the opposite sex to change things.
My point is, doesn't mean that's right. The point in have a planet full of both male AND female species is for procreation. If homosexualty were the norm, then there would only be 1 gender on this planet, and it would have been wiped out once all of them died off.
So you've proven nothing by that statement.
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Actually many Christians are fine with gay marriage & homosexuality in general.
No they're not.
He said, "many." He didn't say all or he didn't even say "a vast majority."
But even I have encountered some *who claim to be Christian* who are sympathetic and even are OK with gay marriage and gays in general. We don't disgust all who say they're Christians.
We all wear a green carnation.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/gays_communion
Quote:
Priest Denies Gays' Supporters Communion
By JOSHUA FREED, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 32 minutes ago
ST. PAUL, Minn. - A Roman Catholic priest denied communion to more than 100 people Sunday, saying they could not receive the sacrament because they wore rainbow-colored sashes to church to show support for gay Catholics.
Before offering communion, the Rev. Michael Sklucazek told the congregation at the Cathedral of St. Paul that anyone wearing a sash could come forward for a blessing but would not receive wine and bread.
A group called the Rainbow Sash Alliance has encouraged supporters to wear the multicolored fabric bands since 2001 on each Pentecost Sunday, the day Catholics believe the Holy Spirit came to give power to Christians soon after Jesus ascended to heaven. But Sunday's service was the first time they had been denied communion at the altar.
Archbishop Harry Flynn told the group earlier this month that they would not receive communion because the sashes had become a protest against church teaching.
Sister Gabriel Herbers said she wore a sash to show sympathy for the gay and lesbian community. Their sexual orientation "is a gift from God just as much as my gift of being a female is," she said.
Ann McComas-Bussa did not wear a sash, but she and her husband and three children all wore rainbow-colored ribbons and were denied communion. "As a Catholic, I just need to stand in solidarity with those that are being oppressed," she said.
While other parishioners sat or kneeled after going to the altar, sash-wearers remained standing with their hands cupped as a symbol they still wanted the sacrament. Their silent protest lasted about five minutes, until the congregation rose to hear the announcements and the benediction before being dismissed.
The Rainbow Sash Alliance says that by wearing the sash, members "publicly claim our place at Christ's table, sacramentally expressing the truth in our lives, and calling the church to embrace a new day of integrity and freedom."
Organizer Brian McNeill wrote to Flynn last month, explaining that the sashes are a symbol "to celebrate the gift of our lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender sexuality."
Flynn wrote back to say the sashes are "more and more perceived as a protest against church teaching," declaring that it has never been acceptable "to use the reception of communion as an act of protest."
Parishioner Larry Pavlicek was not sympathetic. As a divorced man, he said he has to live with the church's teaching that he cannot remarry and cannot have sex outside of marriage.
"If you're going to be a Catholic, either live with it or call yourself something different," he said. "They're trying to change something that has been taught by the church for 2,000 years."
Archdiocese spokesman Dennis McGrath said Flynn made the decision to deny communion after a cardinal asked U.S. bishops to adopt a consistent policy on the sashes. Catholics in Chicago and other cities such as Melbourne, Australia, have also worn sashes. Some have been denied communion, others have not.
Last year, some conservative groups in St. Paul kneeled in church aisles to block sash-wearers from receiving communion.
To sum it up, since a couple of you don't like reading through "long" articles - this isn't a case of gays being denied Communion. This is a case of people who support gay rights but who aren't gay being denied Communion.
Maybe it's not for me to say this, since I'm not Catholic, but this goes WAY over the line, in my book.
I can at least understand the rationale behind denying gays Communion, although in no way do I agree. But to deny it to people who support gay rights? To me, this is unacceptable.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
My point is, doesn't mean that's right. The point in have a planet full of both male AND female species is for procreation. If homosexualty were the norm, then there would only be 1 gender on this planet, and it would have been wiped out once all of them died off.
So you've proven nothing by that statement.
A lot is proven. Nobody has ever said that homosexuality was the 'norm'. Just that it occurs as part of nature. Be it an abberation, or whatever...it's there. Society needs to accept that, regardless of your spiritual leanings. Even if the act of anal sex was life threatening, as Pariah 'the all knowing' insists...It'd be my decision to partake, much like smoking and drinking alchohol (both of which carry more severe and fatal effects than regular sex with a partner ever could). As well...if health were really his concern, there are much larger causes to take into consideration than concern for my colon.
Now you all may feel that God hates us...or whatever. Fine. The only person in here that has come even close to the reality of your selective condemnation is Wonder Boy...in pointing out that there are equally damnable sins that deserve more of your attention, as they go on regularily within the ranks of your parishners....'rafter in your own eye' and all that. From the simple things like sex out of wedlock and the pursuit of money...right on over to the consistent reoccurance of molestation in the preisthood. If I'm going to hell, I have no doubt that the lot of you are comming with me...if for no other reason than the way you conduct yourselves as 'christians'.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
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Quote:
klinton said:
A lot is proven. Nobody has ever said that homosexuality was the 'norm'. Just that it occurs as part of nature. Be it an abberation, or whatever...it's there. Society needs to accept that
Yes. Homosexuality occurs, so therefore it is natural. It may not be relatively prevalent, but it exists.
Quote:
Even if the act of anal sex was life threatening, as Pariah 'the all knowing' insists...
The simple fact is that we do many things that are dangerous to us and that perhaps our bodies were not best-designed for. Hell, many women still die in childbirth. But that doesn't mean we sit back and advocate that childbirth, on those bases, is wrong.
Quote:
If I'm going to hell, I have no doubt that the lot of you are comming with me...if for no other reason than the way you conduct yourselves as 'christians'.
It's nothing but hubris for one to say "I'm pure, it's YOU who's going to hell."
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Your raving and senseless rant aside, I didn't bring up anything regarding my religous views on this subject once--Except to denote the fact that I was distancing myself from arguments with them as a basis.
You said that the secular opinion did not hold the monopoly...thus implying that there was equal merit in biased sources...I assumed that you meant your church...perhaps I was wrong?
Quote:
A vast majority....And a few crackpots....That's great. That's fuckin' great--You roll with that.
I will. There's a reason it's the industry standard.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
klinton said:
A lot is proven. Nobody has ever said that homosexuality was the 'norm'. Just that it occurs as part of nature. Be it an abberation, or whatever...it's there. Society needs to accept that
Yes. Homosexuality occurs, so therefore it is natural. It may not be relatively prevalent, but it exists.
That proves nothing, especially that it's "natural".
Last edited by Batwoman; 2005-05-16 3:29 PM.
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
That proves nothing, especially that it's "natural".
How does it not? Animals react on instinct...not on 'choices'. How can it's occurance in nature be anything but natural?
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
klinton said:
A lot is proven. Nobody has ever said that homosexuality was the 'norm'. Just that it occurs as part of nature. Be it an abberation, or whatever...it's there. Society needs to accept that
Yes. Homosexuality occurs, so therefore it is natural. It may not be relatively prevalent, but it exists.
That proves nothing, especially that it's "natural".
I have no desire to argue with you. A battle of wits against the unarmed is not a fair fight.
If you don't like queers, fine, don't talk to me.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
If you don't like queers, fine, don't talk to me.
Ah, Jim...you've now just become a troll. Way to go. Have you no compassion?
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Men wrote the Bible. Men decided Homosexuality is a TOP priority sin, one resulting in a one way ticket to an eternity in HELL.
A cab driver once told me that ALL those who are NOT Jehovah's Witnesses AUTOMATICALLY go to hell.
Many other religions believe that ALL other religions are WRONG, and theirs is the ONLY true religion.
I CAN'T and WON'T speak for what GOD really thinks of all this. I CAN say my gut feeling is that he's quite a bit more compassionate and loving than we humans give him credit. At least, I can believe this.
Until EACH of us dies, we'll never really know what happens after you leave your mortal shell. Even then, we STILL may never know.
I just wanted to address that pesky " Homosexuals AUTOMATICALLY go to Hell. " Issue.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok. 
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Batwoman said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
klinton said:
A lot is proven. Nobody has ever said that homosexuality was the 'norm'. Just that it occurs as part of nature. Be it an abberation, or whatever...it's there. Society needs to accept that
Yes. Homosexuality occurs, so therefore it is natural. It may not be relatively prevalent, but it exists.
That proves nothing, especially that it's "natural".
I have no desire to argue with you. A battle of wits against the unarmed is not a fair fight.
If you don't like queers, fine, don't talk to me.
OH, so when you have nothing to contribute to a converstaion, you write those of us off that you don't agree with as "unarmed".
Yeah that proves your point. 
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
OH, so when you have nothing to contribute to a converstaion, you write those of us off that you don't agree with as "unarmed".
Yeah that proves your point.
No...he's writing that you contribute nothing of substance...the same thing I told you a month or so ago. You just rant and ramble...stating your opinion but offering no reasoning for it.
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ST. PAUL, Minn. - A Roman Catholic priest denied communion to more than 100 people Sunday, saying they could not receive the sacrament because they wore rainbow-colored sashes to church to show support for gay Catholics.
__________________________________________
Darknight, THAT is truly sad.
Banning Books that have NOTHING to do with being gay just because a Gay person wrote them is equally sad.
Next, they'll be banning art by gay artists, banning gay actors and shows that have a gay actor in it.
Hate is not a family value.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Batwoman said:
That proves nothing, especially that it's "natural".
How does it not? Animals react on instinct...not on 'choices'. How can it's occurance in nature be anything but natural?
Are you sure you want to use the animals do it argument? Before you rest anything on this argument consider other things animals do on instict.
- Incest
- beatiality
- Some animals kill thier mate durring or after sex
- Some animals eat thier new born children
- many animals willl kill compitition for a mate.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
Beardguy57 said:
ST. PAUL, Minn. - A Roman Catholic priest denied communion to more than 100 people Sunday, saying they could not receive the sacrament because they wore rainbow-colored sashes to church to show support for gay Catholics.
I read that. But does that really bother you? I mean, really? Do you wish to have anything to do with the church?
I have absolutely no problem letting them govern their religion as they see fit. I want no part of thier church...and the fact that they feel the same is of no consequence to me. It's when those opinions start to affect public policy that I take issue.
I will not be judged by a church that routinely flouts God's word itself.
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It's jus a counter to the 'it's a descision' argument. And once again...of all of those practices...as a society, we can look at homosexuality and note that allowing two men, or two women to marry is a 'victimless crime'. In the end it hurts no one...But denying us that hurts us...The same cannot be said of anything else on your list.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Batwoman said:
That proves nothing, especially that it's "natural".
How does it not? Animals react on instinct...not on 'choices'. How can it's occurance in nature be anything but natural?
Are you sure you want to use the animals do it argument? Before you rest anything on this argument consider other things animals do on instict.
- Incest
- beatiality
- Some animals kill thier mate durring or after sex
- Some animals eat thier new born children
- many animals willl kill compitition for a mate.
Hence my answer, it proves nothing.
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
Hence my answer, it proves nothing.
Quoting someone else and tacking on a 'yeah, what he said' does not make your argument valid...it makes his argument worth replying to and you...still nothing of merit.
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Klinton Said :
__________________________________________
I read that. But does that really bother you? I mean, really? Do you wish to have anything to do with the church?
I have absolutely no problem letting them govern their religion as they see fit. I want no part of thier church...and the fact that they feel the same is of no consequence to me. It's when those opinions start to affect public policy that I take issue.
I will not be judged by a church that routinely flouts God's word itself.
_________________________________________
Klinton, I'm not Catholic. I just think it's sad that The Catholic Church is being so mean spirited with Cathloics who express feelings and opinions counter to it's beliefs.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Quote:
Beardguy57 said:
Klinton, I'm not Catholic. I just think it's sad that The Catholic Church is being so mean spirited with Cathloics who express feelings and opinions counter to it's beliefs.
Sadly...they are not couter to the church's beliefs. Couter to Christ's teachings, yes. But counter to the church protocol? No.
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Batwoman said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
klinton said:
A lot is proven. Nobody has ever said that homosexuality was the 'norm'. Just that it occurs as part of nature. Be it an abberation, or whatever...it's there. Society needs to accept that
Yes. Homosexuality occurs, so therefore it is natural. It may not be relatively prevalent, but it exists.
That proves nothing, especially that it's "natural".
I have no desire to argue with you. A battle of wits against the unarmed is not a fair fight.
If you don't like queers, fine, don't talk to me.
OH, so when you have nothing to contribute to a converstaion, you write those of us off that you don't agree with as "unarmed".
Yeah that proves your point.
I've had tons to contribute. What galls me is that I'm reduced to arguing with people for whom issues of homosexuality have no direct bearing on their daily lives...yet that cannot be said of me. It matters a lot to me, to who I am. It's the same rationale I've been beating over Pariah's head (and to which he finally relented).
So many of you love to sit in high-and-mighty judgement over issues that are trivial to you yet crucial to me. THAT angers me.
Last edited by Jim Jackson; 2005-05-16 4:36 PM.
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Jim Jackson said :
_________________________________________
I've had tons to contribute. What galls me is that I'm reduced to arguing with people for whom issues of homosexuality have no direct bearing on their daily lives...yet that cannot be said of me. It matters a lot to me, to who I am. It's the same rationale I've been beating over Pariah's head (and to which he finally relented).
So many of you love to sit in high-and-mighty judgement over issues that are trivial to you yet crucial to me. THAT angers me.
_________________________________________
I agree, Jim. It's like My Mom. I just had my favorite cat, Max put to sleep three weeks ago today. He was ten years old. He was sick for a month and the medical bills for his illness, death and cremation were BIG.
My mom thinks having pets is STUPID because according to her, all pets do is cause a lot of work, worry, they get sick, cost a lot of money and die.
She has NEVER had a pet in her life, and is afraid of cats, dogs, and little kittens, too.
She'll never know for TWO fucking minutes all the love, companionship, and joy pets give us, but she sreams at me and tells me I'm an idiot if I get another cat because I ought to be happy with just the two cats I have, Rachel and Samantha.....
And being told by straight strangers that being gay is just wrong when they don't know what being gay is like at all makes as little sense.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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You and your mother also have other issues, don't you? 
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
You and your mother also have other issues, don't you?
No, no. The dead cat is somehow relevant to every topic...get with the program Jim.
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Yup, Jim. Oh well. If I am lucky, I'll meet a very nice man someday and move out from the apartment above hers. I lived with a great guy for 17 years. Maybe lightning will strike twice, though I'm not holding my breath, LoL!
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Klinton said : _________________________________________ No, no. The dead cat is somehow relevant to every topic...get with the program Jim. __________________________________________ Max. The dead cat's name was Max. 
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Quote:
Beardguy57 said:
Yup, Jim. Oh well. If I am lucky, I'll meet a very nice man someday and move out from the apartment above hers.
I suggest you do that now. Why wait? Cut that embilical cord...
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Batwoman said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
Batwoman said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
klinton said:
A lot is proven. Nobody has ever said that homosexuality was the 'norm'. Just that it occurs as part of nature. Be it an abberation, or whatever...it's there. Society needs to accept that
Yes. Homosexuality occurs, so therefore it is natural. It may not be relatively prevalent, but it exists.
That proves nothing, especially that it's "natural".
I have no desire to argue with you. A battle of wits against the unarmed is not a fair fight.
If you don't like queers, fine, don't talk to me.
OH, so when you have nothing to contribute to a converstaion, you write those of us off that you don't agree with as "unarmed".
Yeah that proves your point.
I've had tons to contribute. What galls me is that I'm reduced to arguing with people for whom issues of homosexuality have no direct bearing on their daily lives...yet that cannot be said of me. It matters a lot to me, to who I am. It's the same rationale I've been beating over Pariah's head (and to which he finally relented).
So many of you love to sit in high-and-mighty judgement over issues that are trivial to you yet crucial to me. THAT angers me.
Oh so those of us who aren't gay, but know gays can't contribute to this? Yeah that makes sense.
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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klinton said:
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Batwoman said:
Hence my answer, it proves nothing.
Quoting someone else and tacking on a 'yeah, what he said' does not make your argument valid...it makes his argument worth replying to and you...still nothing of merit.
Bull! I've contributed more things of substance to this thread, the other one and every other thread I've posted to on Rob's boards, than you ever have!
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
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I'm on disability, Jim. It would be very difficult for me to live on my own.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
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..And Jim? even during the 17 years I lived with George. she bothered us BOTH so much that George refused to talk to her for the last few years of her life.
She has no real friends, and drives people away..my father, my brother, George.. It's stupid but also quite sad, and I don't feel comfortable discussing this in here.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
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Batwoman said:
Oh so those of us who aren't gay, but know gays can't contribute to this? Yeah that makes sense.
I highly doubt you have gay friends (or any friends, really) to begin with. And, if by some cosmic chance you do 'know' a gay person...Do you talk to them like you talk in here? And they buy your crap? Or do they feed it back to you with logic and humanity.
The point of Jim's rant thier was the complete lack of compassion and concern for the well being of others. You all ponitificate as though you are some sort of authority in an arena that has little to do with your daily life, and means the world to people like he and I.
No one here can see that. Their so hung up on the 'act' of gay sex that they've lost sight of the real people that they are trying to step on. Imagine if your forty year old ass found a man that would have you, and liberate you from your parents house...but people like yourself stood and declared your love illegal and immoral. Now imagine those people lived in the usofa and managed to make your marriage illegal....despite the fact that every fiber of your soul told you that loving this person is the best thing for you (in the way that love does that...completes your daily existence). How are you supposed to react to that? Happy? Are you supposed to agree with them?
You have no buisness denying the rights of others based on your preferences....religious or otherwise. If you can't see that...Well, go on with your little bitter existence. Good luck.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
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Batwoman said:
Bull! I've contributed more things of substance to this thread, the other one and every other thread I've posted to on Rob's boards, than you ever have!
Show me just one example. Just because your opinion is clear in your head...you've done little to support it. As much as I disagree with Pariah and his assesment of the issues...He does attempt to offer some substance to his arguments.
This is just another example of your 'I said so, therefore it's true'....that's all you ever give.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
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this coming from the agnry drunk
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
I've had tons to contribute. What galls me is that I'm reduced to arguing with people for whom issues of homosexuality have no direct bearing on their daily lives...yet that cannot be said of me. It matters a lot to me, to who I am. It's the same rationale I've been beating over Pariah's head (and to which he finally relented).
I don't know where you get this from, I didn't relent anything. I just said I'd do you the favor and word my statements less analytically and more sensitively.
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Beardguy57 said:
Klinton, I'm not Catholic. I just think it's sad that The Catholic Church is being so mean spirited with Cathloics who express feelings and opinions counter to it's beliefs.
You fucking asshole. Here you are sitting on the side-lines taking pot-shots at a religion you don't understand (and can't even begin to) and then have the nerve to blame the Church for the actions of one man who has been clearly stated to not represent the Vatican. And then you go on to make such broad generalizations, "I just think it's sad that The Catholic Church is being so mean spirited with Cathloics who express feelings and opinions counter to it's beliefs," does this mean we should tolerate the beliefs of the KKK, The Black Panthers, Nazis, Satan extremists, etc. as well as homosexuality?
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klinton said:
It's jus a counter to the 'it's a descision' argument. And once again...of all of those practices...as a society, we can look at homosexuality and note that allowing two men, or two women to marry is a 'victimless crime'. In the end it hurts no one...But denying us that hurts us...The same cannot be said of anything else on your list.
No. It's not a victimless crime, because in the end, with the endorsement of homosexuality, it won't be just "two men" and "two women", it will be much much more.
You give the world the idea that something is even benign and not worth the effort to deter when that's clearly not the case, soon enough that tolerance will turn into a majority practice--And please, spare the 'gays are born, not made' double-speak.
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klinton said:
How does it not? Animals react on instinct...not on 'choices'. How can it's occurance in nature be anything but natural?
So it's instinct for them to hump other animals of different species'?
You're right, they do go on instinct when it comes to sex, but not merely when they want release.
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klinton said:
You said that the secular opinion did not hold the monopoly...thus implying that there was equal merit in biased sources...I assumed that you meant your church...perhaps I was wrong?
No, I was pointing out that you were implying that only secularists could prove anything to you.
Jesus Christ could descend from Heaven right before your eyes and shout in your face, "YOU'RE WRONG YOU DIPSHIT!! YOU'RE FUCKING WRONG!! CAN'T YOU SEE HOW WRONG YOU ARE!!" and you'd prolly chaulk it up to some sort of revision in the Bible....Or something.
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I will. There's a reason it's the industry standard.
The idea that the world was round once wasn't an industry standard. In fact, no one bought it for the longest time. I think you know how that ended up.....I hope.
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