|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
|
|
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633 |
I've often wondered why people keep responding to people in here and the other DT forums when they've made it quite clear they are tired of that other person's arguments.
I think it's partly the " Car Wreck " theory, in part..people can't help coming back to the scene of an accident....and
also a need to convince the other person that they are wrong and need to see the error of their ways.
I always thought arguing was defined as " two people with opposing views who come to a mutually acceptable conclusion. "
Not by who can hurl the vilest insults.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Well perhaps you need to sum up your arguments, because I missed that. I'm not arguing with you. i just don't think you're going to make any progress with this method.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
|
|
1500+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657 |
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Well perhaps you need to sum up your arguments, because I missed that. I'm not arguing with you. i just don't think you're going to make any progress with this method.
You mean arguing point by point or me getting pissed off that no one's referencing what I say?
In any event, I'll do you the favor. Later though.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030 |
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
I just finished interviewing an owner/operator of a vagina. She informed me that vaginal intercourse can at times be painful and after a night of sex it's not uncommon to suffer from a sore pussy. She also mentioned that PIV intercourse is associated with frequent bladder infections.
You want another "natural" shock? Women whose male partners are uncircumcised are more likely to experience cervical cancer in their lives than their counterparts whose partners are circumcised.
This is meant as no knock on our uncut friends, merely a piece of data to add to this discussion.
We all wear a green carnation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
Beardguy57 said:
This thread needs a referee. Anybody with a big whistle gonna volunteer?
I've let this go on for quite a while without comment. However, might I suggest that we are basically arguing in circles at this point?
Correct me if I am wrong on any point, however:
Pariah thinks anal sex is an inherently unhealthy act. Therefore, it should be banned.
Other posters, notably Jim, klinton, etc. Belieive it is not inherantly unhealthy, or at least no unhealther than many forms of "straight" sex. Even if it were, they argue, it should not be banned because what consenting adults do to their own bodies should be legal.
Does that sum it up?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030 |
My opinion: Let the thread alone. It will either die its own natural death or we'll keep it going. So we go round and round? No skin off your nose.
Excercise more restraint.
We all wear a green carnation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6 |
I'm merely making an observation, Jim, nothing more.
But am I correct in observing that:
Quote:
Pariah thinks anal sex is an inherently unhealthy act. Therefore, it should be banned.
Other posters, notably Jim, klinton, etc. Belieive it is not inherantly unhealthy, or at least no unhealther than many forms of "straight" sex. Even if it were, they argue, it should not be banned because what consenting adults do to their own bodies should be legal.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1
We already are 15000+ posts
|
|
We already are 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1 |
You're right G-Man. However, that could be argued about 90% of the threads in this forum. It's not anybodys fault its just that this country has become so polarized that nobody is willing to listen to the other side anymore.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6 |
But there are other aspects to this issue that could be addressed, and may be in the future.
Let me throw one out as devil's advocate:
Even acts between consenting adults MIGHT have a deletorious, if indirect, effect on society at large. If those acts lead to a breakdown on societal order or norms. Or lead to patterns of behavior the effect a society's long term viability.
Some might argue that, even if most gay people are "born" that way, there is a significant portion of society that isn't born gay per se, but might be willing to experiment more, if society were more tolerant of homosexuality.
This experimentation, they might argue, will lead to a greater willingness to develop tastes that cannot be satisified in a traditional, monogamous relationship. It could also, they might argue, lead to a greater sexualization of society.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030 |
Quote:
the G-man said:
Some might argue that, even if most gay people are "born" that way, there is a significant portion of society that isn't born gay per se, but might be willing to experiment more, if society were more tolerant of homosexuality.
This experimentation, they might argue, will lead to a greater willingness to develop tastes that cannot be satisified in a traditional, monogamous relationship. It could also, they might argue, lead to a greater sexualization of society.
Thoughts?
I'm waiting for you to make a concluding remark.
We all wear a green carnation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
|
|
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281 |
Why can I only see the last page by clicking on the most recent response? It doesn'T show up in the list of pages.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6 |
I'm having the same problem. I think it has something to do with browser cache. I'll PM Rob and ask him.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
the G-man said:
Some might argue that, even if most gay people are "born" that way, there is a significant portion of society that isn't born gay per se, but might be willing to experiment more, if society were more tolerant of homosexuality.
This experimentation, they might argue, will lead to a greater willingness to develop tastes that cannot be satisified in a traditional, monogamous relationship. It could also, they might argue, lead to a greater sexualization of society.
Thoughts?
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
I'm waiting for you to make a concluding remark.
I'm just throwing out the questions and asking for your thoughts.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
|
|
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633 |
Quote:
the G-man said:
But there are other aspects to this issue that could be addressed, and may be in the future.
Let me throw one out as devil's advocate:
Even acts between consenting adults MIGHT have a deletorious, if indirect, effect on society at large. If those acts lead to a breakdown on societal order or norms. Or lead to patterns of behavior the effect a society's long term viability.
Some might argue that, even if most gay people are "born" that way, there is a significant portion of society that isn't born gay per se, but might be willing to experiment more, if society were more tolerant of homosexuality.
This experimentation, they might argue, will lead to a greater willingness to develop tastes that cannot be satisified in a traditional, monogamous relationship. It could also, they might argue, lead to a greater sexualization of society.
Thoughts?
I have long wondered exactly what many heterosexuals fear about gay people. Is it that we gays represent freedom? Unihibited sexuality? Do most of these homophobic individuals fear that they may actually enjoy gay sex? And also fear the derision of their friends, family, etc? Do they attribute demonic powers to us?
I know I am stating the obvious, but just how many more centuries must pass before gays are accepted as Human Beings, not as the Devil's servants, or " alternate Lifestyles "?
I expect it is just human nature to fear and hate that which is different...and it's sad.
As for the monogamous relationship ..I am all for that. I seek a monogamous relationship, myself. Call me old fashioned if you will....but I like things in my life to be the same. I crave consistancy.
I do not understand why so many gay men who already have a partner they love have to go out on an endless hunt for new and more exciting sexual partners, like vampires seeking fresh blood. It may be low self esteem..these people NEED a new conquest regularly to feel good about themselves..or boredom..or a sense of adventure..or a combination of several factors, or maybe none of the ones I listed....
If heterosexual people fear a breakdown of society will occur if gays are given equal rights, they ought to examine their own lives first. The American family is rapidly becoming extinct...divorces rates are high, and so is spousal and child abuse.
Treatments of gays often reminds me of the witch hunts in Salem a few hundred years ago. Yeah, we're more advanced now, with our Dvd's, microwaves, and cell phones... Bullshit.
Some blame the automobile ..it enabled people to travel a greater distance at a faster rate than any horse could achieve..thus enabling husbands...and wives..to find the time to indulge in extra marrital affairs.
Why do they do this? Perhaps some just chose the wrong mate...out of fear of being alone the rest of their lives..or their parents pressured them to marry a certain man or woman....or a myriad of reasons...
But I don't believe for one instant that gays are to blame for the breakdown of society's morals. Yes, some contribute....but not most..... It's the choices individuals make..Hot..fast..slow..cold..cheat..don't cheat.. that are affecting our country.
Gays are just being used as the scape goat, as blacks and hispanics were, until civil rights changed that, at least somewhat..... .I admit things for black and hispanic people could be much better, though..
And I am very sad to see that it is even a topic of debate at all in the US government whether gays should be ALLOWED to marry, as many states have passed laws or are in the process of passing laws that will take more and more human rights away from gays.
We're HUMAN beings...not targets for derision.
How would it lead to a breakdown of Societal order if gays are given equal ( not special ) rights? I don't think THAT many people will " Switch " to the other side if gay rights are permanently granted...and society is already on what I believe to be an irretrievable descent... inhibitions against being gay are STRONG....and I believe most of the ones who hate gays the MOST are closet cases......
We work, pay our bills, worry about money, what's for dinner, laundry, being lonely, etc.
Just like everybody else.
My objection to Queer as Folk is that it portrays gay men as being nothing more than bed hopping, hormone crazed animals. Ugh! I myself think of sex, yes..but also about comic books, movies, music, life, God, and my place in the universe....
I don't expect everyone here to agree with me. I do expect to make a few think. Some days, that's the best you can expect.
Last edited by Beardguy57; 2005-06-07 9:10 PM.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
I know I am stating the obvious, but just how many more centuries must pass before gays are accepted as Human Beings, not as sinners
Of course there are those of us who think Human Beings ARE sinners. To be counted among them is to be counted among the human experience wich is to sin. I think you're a human being, but I also think that, like me, you are a sinner.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
|
|
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633 |
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
I know I am stating the obvious, but just how many more centuries must pass before gays are accepted as Human Beings, not as sinners
Of course there are those of us who think Human Beings ARE sinners. To be counted among them is to be counted among the human experience wich is to sin. I think you're a human being, but I also think that, like me, you are a sinner.
Hi WBAM..I guess I could edit that sentence to say,
" just how many centuries must pass before gays are accepted as Human Beings, not as the devil himself. "
I shall do that.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
Beardguy57 said:If heterosexual people fear a breakdown of society will occur if gays are given equal rights, they ought to examine their own lives first. The American family is rapidly becoming extinct...divorces rates are high, and so is spousal and child abuse.
But, to play devil's advocate, couldn't that be nothing but a reflection of an "anything goes, if it feels good, do it, "my body my choice" mentality...which some would argue is is the whole reason for the push for gay rights.
Quote:
Gays are just being used as the scape goat, as blacks and hispanics were, until civil rights changed that, at least somewhat..... .I admit things for black and hispanic people could be much better, though..
On the other hand, some would argue that this is a bad analogy because homosexuality, even in genetic, involves behavior, not just skin color.
Quote:
My objection to Queer as Folk is that it portrays gay men as being nothing more than bed hopping, hormone crazed animals.
Well, if you makes you feel better, "Friends," "Three's Company," "Seinfeld," "Sex in the City," about thirty thousand other sitcoms about "young urban singles" have portrayed straight men (and women) as nothing more than hormone crazed animals.
See....you ARE achieving equality. 
Quote:
I don't expect everyone here to agree with me. I do expect to make a few think. Some days, that's the best you can expect.
Hey, and THAT's why we have the DT forum in the first place.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
|
|
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633 |
G Man said : On the other hand, some would argue that this is a bad analogy because homosexuality, even in genetic, involves behavior, not just skin color.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, some would object to comparing Gay Civil rights to civil rights for Blacks and Hispanics..
But Black people have come a LONG way in just last 50 years..and there is room for better treatment....
But Gays have also had to protest, speak out and campaign for their rights....Yes..agreed..it is NOT the same as it was for Blacks.....but there are similarities...
Non acceptance just because of who you are..... However, as a black friend has reminded me, " Being gay, you can pass for straight..but when you are black, that is with you where ever you go. "
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
|
|
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281 |
Quote:
the G-man said:
On the other hand, some would argue that this is a bad analogy because homosexuality, even in genetic, involves behavior, not just skin color.
And everyone will get along a lot better if I never here someone refer to it as a 'behavior' again. It's not abou the act. We are not talking about sex here . We are talking about love.
It's looking at it like that that is causing the miscomunications. The analogy of a black person is sound. If they really want to, they can bleach thier damned skin. That, I think would be a world less painful than not having a companion they can love and be loved by. They shouldn't have to do this, and people like myself shouldn't have to feel they should rip out a central part of themselves to please fundimentalists.
If you really can't see it this way, then you're looking at it all wrong.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
|
|
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281 |
Quote:
the G-man said:
This experimentation, they might argue, will lead to a greater willingness to develop tastes that cannot be satisified in a traditional, monogamous relationship.
This might be a valid argument if people were fighting for the right to have sex. You are losing sight of the fact that this is aboout people wanting to commit to eachother. That's it. We are already having sex.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
|
|
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633 |
Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
On the other hand, some would argue that this is a bad analogy because homosexuality, even in genetic, involves behavior, not just skin color.
And everyone will get along a lot better if I never here someone refer to it as a 'behavior' again. It's not abou the act. We are not talking about sex here . We are talking about love.
It's looking at it like that that is causing the miscomunications. The analogy of a black person is sound. If they really want to, they can bleach thier damned skin. That, I think would be a world less painful than not having a companion they can love and be loved by. They shouldn't have to do this, and people like myself shouldn't have to feel they should rip out a central part of themselves to please fundimentalists.
If you really can't see it this way, than you're looking at it all wrong.
Klinton, that is my point, too....it SHOULD be about Love and acceptance.
But Blacks should NOT have to change, either.
Remember THIS line from X 2 ? :
Nightcrawler : I hear you can imitate anyone, even their voice.
Mystique : Even their voice.. ( imitating Nightcrawler PERFECTLY. )
Nightcrawler : Then why not use your power, you know, stay disguised all the time..and look like everyone else?
Mystique : Because we shouldn't have to.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
|
|
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281 |
And fictional characters have what to do with anything?
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
|
|
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633 |
Quote:
klinton said:
And fictional characters have what to do with anything?
Because Blacks should NOT have to change their appearance to be accepted.
And Gays shouldn't have to try to be straight to be accepted.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
|
|
1500+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657 |
Of course you know that Pariah has succeded with his bomb throwing. why are you argueing among yourselves? He's not responding. Why continue with this stupid diversion of the thread?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
|
|
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281 |
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Of course you know that Pariah has succeded with his bomb throwing. why are you argueing among yourselves? He's not responding. Why continue with this stupid diversion of the thread?
I was talking to G-man.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
|
|
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633 |
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Of course you know that Pariah has succeded with his bomb throwing. why are you argueing among yourselves? He's not responding. Why continue with this stupid diversion of the thread?
Magic Jay, I purposely stayed OUT of the Pariah Wars. I did not buy the first issue, so I avoided future installments.
I don't buy into the whole " Insult and steamroll over those who disagree with me " thing. It's quite pointless, actually...
If someone disagrees with me here, it's part and parcel of posting in the DT forum.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 24,106
faggot 15000+ posts
|
|
faggot 15000+ posts
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 24,106 |
You guys are right. I, among others, have hijacked this thread somewhat off topic by focusing on the physical act of one type of homosexuality rather than looking at the whole issue. People are people and there's no reason, IMO, to discriminate against one person loving another. If there's one thing the American society lacks it's a strong foundation for companionship. The only people I know who are married haven't been married very long. Even my parents (who told me divorce is a sin they will never even consider it) got divorced more than a year ago. Culturally we've been focusing more on sex and tradition than love or relationships. I know enough straight and gay couples to see simularities in the ones which are working out and the opnes which aren't. When two people respect and support each other, it doesn't matter what their gender is. It will always be supplimental to spiritual growth to have someone in honest support of you.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
|
|
1500+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657 |
Quote:
Uschi said:
You guys are right. I, among others, have hijacked this thread somewhat off topic by focusing on the physical act of one type of homosexuality rather than looking at the whole issue. People are people and there's no reason, IMO, to discriminate against one person loving another. If there's one thing the American society lacks it's a strong foundation for companionship. The only people I know who are married haven't been married very long. Even my parents (who told me divorce is a sin they will never even consider it) got divorced more than a year ago. Culturally we've been focusing more on sex and tradition than love or relationships. I know enough straight and gay couples to see simularities in the ones which are working out and the opnes which aren't. When two people respect and support each other, it doesn't matter what their gender is. It will always be supplimental to spiritual growth to have someone in honest support of you.
I think that the controversy about gay marriage is largely a product of the demise of Magical Thinking. I think many people have this vision of marriage as a holy sacrament. It is the culmination of a love between 2 people and the joining together of families. The joining together of families was really the more important function historically and goes back to a tribal kinship system. Romantic love as we know it only entered the equation in the 13th or 14th century AD. Since the child bearing capabilities of gay couples is somewhat limited, the mixing of bloods or making of one of the 2 kinship groups is not fully consumated. It breaks a societal norm.
Same sex marriage is the product solely of romantic love. Hence it defies the original purpose of the institution of marriage, alliance of kinship groups. It lacks that magic and is solely an expression of love between 2 people. It's somewhat like Copernicus telling the pope he's not the center of the universe. The idea is so deeply buried in the psyche that most people are not even aware of it.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030 |
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
[Same sex marriage is the product solely of romantic love.
Very interesting.
And I'll be further interested to see what our str8 friends say to that.
We all wear a green carnation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
|
|
1500+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657 |
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
[Same sex marriage is the product solely of romantic love.
Very interesting.
And I'll be further interested to see what our str8 friends say to that.
I thought it would be a nice change from the topic of anal sex.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
[Same sex marriage is the product solely of romantic love.
Very interesting.
And I'll be further interested to see what our str8 friends say to that.
If it was sole the product of romantic love wich according to MJ didn't exist untill the 13 century  (someone should read Song of Solomon) then it would be a non issue. You could argue that gay relationships are the product solely of romantic love, but the fight over the term marraige is one of politics. A desire for government acceptence (this doesn't mean it's wrong, but it means it's much farther reaching than simply romantic love). Personally I think there is a battle over a word. By reqesting that word marraige be applied you're asking government to say that your relationship is the same as a hetero-sexual relationship. It's not. It may be beutifull romantic or anytyhing else, that's not for me to say, but it's not the same. If you want to make the civil rights comparrison then i would say the fight over the word marraige would be akin to African-Americans asking government to not view them as equal, but to offically call them white. First let me explain why they are different.
Marraige between a man and a woman, i believe, spans beond the individuals. It's a recognition that the two most disperate elements of humanity need each other that unless they can come to a truce they will be incomplete (I'm not speaking necesarily of individuals) Men and women are different, plain and simple. This may suprise some people, but it's fact. M refered to tribal truces brought about by marraige, well the truce between men and women is the most significant and most volitile truce in all of humanity. It's teh joining together of teh ultimate yin and yang of the universe (for you new age types)
I belive that governments position on same sex unions should be one of nutrality. If you want to enter into that relationship romantically then government should have no say, if you want to honour that relationship with a contractual binding then government should uphold that contract. If you want to visit each other in teh hospital or leave your esate to one another then government shoudn't stand in the way. However if you want government to say that your realationship is the same as a hetero sexual one then I don't think that's fair. When ever people in defense of same sex marraige try to analise the "str8's" opposition to it, they alwayseassume it's one of fear or ignorance, but as in any conflict resolution the hardest yet most important question to ask is, "Am I communicating something other than what i intend?" i would submit that the tone of this debate isn't one of successfull conflict resolution and what's being inadvertantly communicated is "you're relationship isn't special" this is most clearly demonstrated by the constant refrain of "str8s have screwed up marraige with divorce and Britney Spears, so now it's our turn to give it a shot" This tack will almost alwayse put your opposition in a defensive posture.
Like it or not you ARE threatening to take something away from hetero-sexual couples and that is the uniqueness of thier relationship. I honestly think that if the homosexual community showed the hetero-sexual community real resect instead of masked distain, then i think they would make great bounds in thier fight for equality. I would suggest that the homosexual community take a posture of "we recognise the uniqueness and importance of your relationships. What we ask is equal rights under the law and a footing to demonstrate the uniqueness and importance of our relationships.
I realise this is alot to read, but i would ask proponants of gay marraige (especailly the gay community of rkmbs) to read carefully what I'm saying and respond, because I have never heard my position taken by either side and i would really appreciate feedback.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030 |
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Marraige between a man and a woman, i believe, spans beond the individuals. It's a recognition that the two most disperate elements of humanity need each other that unless they can come to a truce they will be incomplete (I'm not speaking necesarily of individuals)
You can have this without a formal recognition of "marriage." And who in the world really views their marriage in this way?
Quote:
I belive that governments position on same sex unions should be one of nutrality.
That's because of the side of the fence you're on.
Quote:
Like it or not you ARE threatening to take something away from hetero-sexual couples and that is the uniqueness of thier relationship. I honestly think that if the homosexual community showed the hetero-sexual community real resect instead of masked distain, then i think they would make great bounds in thier fight for equality.
What in the world does this mean?
Quote:
I would suggest that the homosexual community take a posture of "we recognise the uniqueness and importance of your relationships. What we ask is equal rights under the law and a footing to demonstrate the uniqueness and importance of our relationships.
I think, if nothing else, historically, we have.
We all wear a green carnation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
|
|
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281 |
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I honestly think that if the homosexual community showed the hetero-sexual community real resect instead of masked distain, then i think they would make great bounds in thier fight for equality. I would suggest that the homosexual community take a posture of "we recognise the uniqueness and importance of your relationships. What we ask is equal rights under the law and a footing to demonstrate the uniqueness and importance of our relationships.
I don't want to be seperate. I think enough has been done by the straight community to de-value the sanctity you claim to place on 'marriage'. I want to be among you. This is about equality, not celebrating differences. I'm sick of being looked at as something distinct or odd. Personally, my ultimate realization of these procedings is the time when my grandchildren live side by side with gay, lesbian and straight couples without even thinking about it (witch isn't a stretch, looking at the commuinities I've lived in where this is nearly the case). 'Unique' is not acceptable, sorry.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030 |
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I would suggest that the homosexual community take a posture of "we recognise the uniqueness and importance of your relationships. What we ask is equal rights under the law and a footing to demonstrate the uniqueness and importance of our relationships.
There's just something so...subordinate about the "posture" you describe. It sounds like we're asking for a few crumbs from the table.
We all wear a green carnation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
You can have this without a formal recognition of "marriage." And who in the world really views their marriage in this way?
You're right and when the day comes (wich I expect in time it will as it has in societies past) when the formality of marraige is done away with the unique nature of marraige will withstand. That doesn't mean I want that to happen any time soon.
And who views marraige that way? I think there are stll many people who take marraige very seriously and wether or not it's entirely concious many people hold the uniting of men and women in high esteem. I agknolledge that few people in todays society think of marraige in such high esteem, but I think more people than you may expect do. I also think the uniqueness of marraige is something most people hold to subconciously wich is why most people don't know how to react when it's threatened. Finally i get the picture of marraige as going beond the indevidual and being the context for the unification of the sexes from the Scriptures.
Quote:
That's because of the side of the fence you're on.
Do you ever find it helps people to see your side of things when you attemt to phychoanalise them and tell them why they believe what they do and try to write off thier views so flippantly?
Quote:
I think, if nothing else, historically, we have.
That doesn't seem to be the posture I see today. i see one of "there's nothing special about hetero-sexual relationships" Perhaps historically the posture has been one of outnumbered silence, but it seems that the most vocal vioces of today want to devalue hetero-sexual relationships in order to get thier footing. Look in this thread alone. Time and time the fact that hetero-sexual relationships fail is brought up as some sort of defence for your side. Time and time again the opposition is described as fearfull or stupid or archaeic or fundamentalist. Not once do I see the posture of agknoledging that the opposition may have some legitimate concerns and an attemt to answer those concerns rather than dismiss them.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
klinton said:
I don't want to be seperate.
I didn't say seperate. There is a huge distiction with seperate and different. I'm not saying you have to eat in different restaurants or live in different communities or even have seperate tax bennifits (I'm for civil unions). I'm saying that there is a differnce. Seperate is not ok, but different is.
Quote:
This is about equality, not celebrating differences.
I'm all for eqauity, just read my frst post, that's the first thing i want to see. Men and women are different, but they should still be treated as equals. My wife and I are different, but she is my equal. You and I are different, but we are equals in my mind and should be treated as such. Also it tends not to be my side of the isle that drives arround with bumper stickers saying "celebrate diversity".
Quote:
'Unique' is not acceptable, sorry.
I'm sorry, but that is one of the scarriest notions there is. When unique becomes unnaceptable socity will crumble. When we try to deny differences socity then tries to exterminate those that expose them. Unique is not only acceptable, but it is the very essence of the human experience. Take away those things that make us unique and you have nothing. I cherish the unique nature of my most important relationships and I would hope you and others will too, but when you try to take away the unique nature of someones relationship or try and devalue it they will get defensive, regardless of wether they understand why.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I would suggest that the homosexual community take a posture of "we recognise the uniqueness and importance of your relationships. What we ask is equal rights under the law and a footing to demonstrate the uniqueness and importance of our relationships.
There's just something so...subordinate about the "posture" you describe. It sounds like we're asking for a few crumbs from the table.
Not at all. It's simply saying I value you as you should value me. Rather than "you're value is neglegible so I insist that you value me". You can replace the word "ask" with "demand" if you'd like, but my general premise of a posture of mutual respect will get better results. Unless you view the other side as inferior there should be no harm in agknoledging thier value.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030 |
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Time and time the fact that hetero-sexual relationships fail is brought up as some sort of defence for your side.
It's more brought up as a reason to shoot down the concept of marriage as some holy union. There's no "sancitity of marriagea" in general among the str8s. As such, we ALL need to NOT look at marriage in religious terms.
We all wear a green carnation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
|
|
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281 |
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Not once do I see the posture of agknoledging that the opposition may have some legitimate concerns and an attemt to answer those concerns rather than dismiss them.
Being as respectful as possible here....we have so much more at stake here. For hundreds of years, gay people have been opressed, humiliated, hunted and murdered (yes, even in present day America). You will need to forgive the lack of respect, and the pointing of fingers at the obvious targets. Your 'legitimate' concerns as you refer to them echo the 'purity' of not letting interracial couples marry for 'legitimate' reasons. Don't think this is a half assed request, disregarding the well being of others. It is the product of so many influences...from the afformentioned bigotry, to the self consuming gay culture that has festered in the absence of legitimicy.
We want equality. Your marriage wont be any more or less than it already is by letting me and my boyfriend marry. It will merely allow us to address eachother as equals.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
|
|
|
|
|
