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Quote:
klinton said:
the self consuming gay culture that has festered in the absence of legitimicy.
I think you are on to something here, young man. Kudos to you.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Time and time the fact that hetero-sexual relationships fail is brought up as some sort of defence for your side.
It's more brought up as a reason to shoot down the concept of marriage as some holy union. There's no "sancitity of marriagea" in general among the str8s. As such, we ALL need to NOT look at marriage in religious terms.
To say that there is no sanctity of marraige in str8s is not only an easy way to get your opposition to take a defensive posture it's also not true. For many Marraige is sacred. That being said if society as a whole wants to refute that then they can do it through the legislature. Wich is the right way for it to be done. I'm just suggesting a way of getting a greater number of people to take your side. I'm fully willing to back any mesure that would provide you and a parter every bennifit legally that my wife and I share. All i ask for is a word and that the government not be complicite is the notion that the two types of relationships are the same.
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Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Not once do I see the posture of agknoledging that the opposition may have some legitimate concerns and an attemt to answer those concerns rather than dismiss them.
Being as respectful as possible here....we have so much more at stake here. For hundreds of years, gay people have been opressed, humiliated, hunted and murdered (yes, even in present day America). You will need to forgive the lack of respect, and the pointing of fingers at the obvious targets. Your 'legitimate' concerns as you refer to them echo the 'purity' of not letting interracial couples marry for 'legitimate' reasons. Don't think this is a half assed request, disregarding the well being of others. It is the product of so many influences...from the afformentioned bigotry, to the self consuming gay culture that has festered in the absence of legitimicy.
We want equality. Your marriage wont be any more or less than it already is by letting me and my boyfriend marry. It will merely allow us to address eachother as equals.
i think it's because you have so much at stake that it would be best not to threaten those in teh majority by saying they deserve to be devalued. No one will assist in lifting someone up to a position of power if they think that person will stab them in teh back. Martin Luthor King Jr,'s words inspired many whites to back teh cause of civil rights and he didn't didn't do it by threatening to use equality to get back at whitey. Perhaps you think the Black Panthers message was more legitimate than that of Dr. King, but his sure had a much stronger effect.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
klinton said:
the self consuming gay culture that has festered in the absence of legitimicy.
I think you are on to something here, young man. Kudos to you.
I've brought that same point up before...the last time I went off on Batwoman. No one paid attention. Kinda like Monkey boy is ignoring me now.
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Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
klinton said:
the self consuming gay culture that has festered in the absence of legitimicy.
I think you are on to something here, young man. Kudos to you.
I've brought that same point up before...the last time I went off on Batwoman. No one paid attention. Kinda like Monkey boy is ignoring me now.
Excuse me?
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
To say that there is no sanctity of marraige in str8s is not only an easy way to get your opposition to take a defensive posture it's also not true.
The divorce stats among str8s do not bear your assertion out.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
To say that there is no sanctity of marraige in str8s is not only an easy way to get your opposition to take a defensive posture it's also not true.
The divorce stats among str8s do not bear your assertion out.
Oh, please tell. Are you suggesting that it's teh norm for married couples to get a divorce?
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Oh, please tell. Are you suggesting that it's teh norm for married couples to get a divorce?
At least as normal as those that stay together, yes. Those are the numbers.
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yes, unfortunately it is. go look at the divorce states. Over half end in divorce. In fact, that's why they've coined the term "starter marriages" because most of them, in fact, are.
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False, the statistics that you're refering to are deceptive in thier presentation. The statistic that 50% of marraiges end in divorce takes into account second and third marraiges so people who keep remarrying over and over are factored into the numbers multiple times. The number of first marraiges that end in divorce is less than one third (wich is too high, but a far cry from over half.) Allow me to demonstrate how this works.
you have six people 1 2 3 4 5 6 all of whome get married. Person 1 and peson 2 both get divorces. they remarry, but because they were never good at commitment in the first place both of these marraiges end too. so they get married a third time again these marraiges also end in divorce, so now while we have 6 representives we have 10 marraiges half of wich ended in divorce however 3 4 5 and 6 all stayed married too the same person leaving us with a two thirds success rate umong our sample. That's where this false 50% number comes into play. And as far as using this as a factor of who holds marraige sacred even the less than one third marraiges that end in divorce doesn't take into account that in many of these cases there may an innocent party who still holds marraige as sacred.
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I don't see how it matters whether people are in their first, second, or third divorces. the fact remains that marriage is becoming less and less a sacred institution, and more of a legal contract between two parties that can be easily (though expensively) voided.
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Quote:
Stupid Doog said:
I don't see how it matters whether people are in their first, second, or third divorces. the fact remains that marriage is becoming less and less a sacred institution, and more of a legal contract between two parties that can be easily (though expensively) voided.
It matters because one statistic claims to represent over 50% of people when infact it represents far less. It is very important. If you have one representive being counted multiple times it skews your results. If the results weren't being intentionally skewed why don't we ever hear the other nubers or why aren't people ever corrected when they misuse the data to claim that any given marraige has a 50% of success when that's statistically false. Facts may not matter in political rhetoric, but they do matter when dealing with reality.
Oh and here's a far more thoughtfull analisis that demonstrates the results may be even less reliable than I thought.:
Quote:
bullet
Summary of Rumor:
Marriage has deteriorated so much that half the marriages in the United States are failing. There is a 50 percent chance that your marriage will not make it.
bullet
The Truth:
Here are some examples from just a few Web sites on the Internet:
bullet "Fifty percent of marriages will end in divorce."
— An infidelity support group
bullet "Fifty percent of all marriages now end in divorce."
— Promotion for a book on divorce
bullet "Fifty percent of all marriages in America end in divorce."
— From the treasurer's office of a Midwestern state
bullet "Over 50 percent of marriages end in divorce."
— From a men's counseling center in California
Divorce is too common in America and that should not be taken lightly, but those who are committed to a lifetime of marriage don't need the discouragement accompanying the notion that half the marriages are going to self-destruct anyway.
I was once told by a young bride-to-be that she and her fiancé had decided not to say "Till death do us part" in their wedding vows because the odds of it really happening were only 50-50.
Let me say it straightforwardly: Fifty percent of American marriages are not ending in divorce. It's fiction. A myth. A tragically discouraging urban legend.
If there's no credible evidence that half of American marriages will end up in divorce court, where did that belief originate?
Demographers say there was increased focus on divorce rates during the 1970s when the number of divorces rose, partly as a result of no-fault divorce. Divorces peaked in 1979 and articles started appearing that claimed 50 percent of American marriages were ending in divorce.
A spokesperson for the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics told me that the rumor appears to have originated from a misreading of the facts. It was true, he said, if you looked at all the marriages and divorces within a single year, you'd find that there were twice as many marriages as divorces. In 1981, for example, there were 2.4 million marriages and 1.2 million divorces. At first glance, that would seem like a 50-percent divorce rate.
Virtually none of those divorces were among the people who had married during that year, however, and the statistic failed to take into account the 54 million marriages that already existed, the majority of which would not see divorce.
Another source for the 50-percent figure could be those who were trying to predict the future of divorce. Based on known divorce records, they projected that 50 percent of newly married young people would divorce. University of Chicago sociologist and researcher Linda Waite told USA Today that the 50-percent divorce stats were based more on assumptions than facts.
So what is the divorce picture in America? Surprisingly, it's not easy to get precise figures because some states don't report divorces to the National Center for Health Statistics, including one of the largest: California.
Some researchers have relied on surveys rather than government statistics. In his book Inside America in 1984, pollster Louis Harris said that only about 11 or 12 percent of people who had ever been married had ever been divorced. Researcher George Barna's most recent survey of Americans in 2001 estimates that 34 percent of those who have ever been married have ever been divorced.
One of the latest reports about divorce was released this year by the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS). It is based on a 1995 federal study of nearly 11,000 women ages 15-44. It predicted that one-third of new marriages among younger people will end in divorce within 10 years and 43 percent within 15 years. That is not a death sentence, however; it's a forecast. Martha Farnsworth Riche, former head of the Census Bureau, told USA Today, "This is what is going to happen unless we want to change it."
Most important, the statistics and predictions about Americans in general don't tell the whole story about the future. There are other factors that affect a person's chances for a long marriage. The NCHS study of women, for example, shows that age makes a difference. Women marrying before age 20 face a higher risk for divorce. Marriages that have already lasted for a number of years are less likely to end in divorce. If your parents did not divorce, your chances are better than if you came from a broken home. Couples who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce.
It's one thing to allow politics to be shaped by bad or misleading data, it's another to let it be shaped by an urban legend. You told me to check out the stats for divorce, so I did.
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Some str8 people get divorced.
Some multiple times.
Some cheat and never get divorced.
Some cheat and get divorced.
Some cheat multiple times.
There's enough data out to the suggest that a significant number (you want 1/3, fine, we'll go with 1/3) do not view marriage as a sacred institution.
We really need to keep religion out of it. I know that offends some, but the black man getting to vote did, too.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
We really need to keep religion out of it. I know that offends some, but the black man getting to vote did, too.
I'm just pausing from making a new post in regards to Wanna's request so as to remind you that you tried that shit in the "11 states" thread. It didn't work. And it still won't.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
False, the statistics that you're refering to are deceptive in thier presentation. The statistic that 50% of marraiges end in divorce takes into account second and third marraiges so people who keep remarrying over and over are factored into the numbers multiple times. The number of first marraiges that end in divorce is less than one third (wich is too high, but a far cry from over half.) Allow me to demonstrate how this works.
you have six people 1 2 3 4 5 6 all of whome get married. Person 1 and peson 2 both get divorces. they remarry, but because they were never good at commitment in the first place both of these marraiges end too. so they get married a third time again these marraiges also end in divorce, so now while we have 6 representives we have 10 marraiges half of wich ended in divorce however 3 4 5 and 6 all stayed married too the same person leaving us with a two thirds success rate umong our sample. That's where this false 50% number comes into play. And as far as using this as a factor of who holds marraige sacred even the less than one third marraiges that end in divorce doesn't take into account that in many of these cases there may an innocent party who still holds marraige as sacred.
Aren't we a bit off topic? Marriage was originally a means of forming strategic alliances between kinship groups. The concept of legitamacy of birth, you bastard, stems from the heritability of property. In many parts of the world and even among our own upper classes that is still the case. Romantic love was added as an after thought. Abelard & Heloise are credited with interjecting it into the mix of modern culture. As for the Song of Soloman, if I want to read sexy middle eastern fairie tales I'll stick with 1001 Nights.
Why is it I can't see how same sex marriages devalue str8 marriages? You seem to have a problem with the word itself. What should it be called? Buggerage perhaps? Carpetage for lesbians? The core of the argument you make against gay marriage relies on Magical Thinking. You believe that there is some intrensic superiority of straight marriages over gay marriages and somehow (magic?) gay marriages reduce the value of str8 unions. I think everyone agrees that procreation is not the only reason for str8 marriages so that leaves property, rights of inheritance as well as romantic love as the basis of marriage. In what way does this differ between gay and str8 couples?
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
We really need to keep religion out of it. I know that offends some, but the black man getting to vote did, too.
I'm just pausing from making a new post in regards to Wanna's request so as to remind you that you tried that shit in the "11 states" thread. It didn't work. And it still won't.
Eat shit and die you hateful little troll!
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Some str8 people get divorced.
Some multiple times.
Some cheat and never get divorced.
Some cheat and get divorced.
Some cheat multiple times.
There's enough data out to the suggest that a significant number (you want 1/3, fine, we'll go with 1/3) do not view marriage as a sacred institution.
We really need to keep religion out of it. I know that offends some, but the black man getting to vote did, too.
A very small part of my argument has to do with religion. Again if society wants to change the deffinition then that's fine with me. Just as long as they do it through legislation. For me personally my ONLY beef is one of semantics so as a whole it matters little to me. What I was suggesting was that it may not be good for your position to focus on the negatives of heterosexual maraiges and come at it from a position of mutual respect. That's simply a tactical sugestion. I'm going to bow out from this debate because while have great respect for you and Klinton as people and I don't mind disagreeing politically, but I'm not really into fighting anymore. I believe that you and your partner if you choose to have one should be afforded every right that my wife and I are legally. I just don't view the two types of relationships as the same and I'm not comfortable with government deciding that without a vote from the people. If a vote comes up for civil unions I will go to the polls and vote for it. If a vote comes up to define the term marraige as being open ended I probobly just won't go to the polls (so that's like half a vote) Ronald Reagan said if someone agrees with you 70% of the time then they are not your enemy. I think i agree with you about 70% on this issue. i just want to see the diolouge focus on the positive aspects of each case rather than trying to tear each other down (you'll note that I haven't been on the gays are destroying socity side of this debate either) Yet even for my divergence from your side wich I think is a slight one. I'm called a bastard in the post directly following yours in response to my post defending the divorce statistics, so I'm pretty much done here for teh most part. It's my opinion that you get more flies with honey. But if you think that it's helpfull for those on your side to call those swing voters on the other side that they're bastards because they don't think exactly like you do then keep up the negative tone.
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Aren't we a bit off topic? Marriage was originally a means of forming strategic alliances between kinship groups. The concept of legitamacy of birth, ---> you bastard,<---
You're technically correct, I am a bastard, but I'm a bastard because I never knew my father. He left shortly after getting my teen-aged mother pregnant. I am not technically a bastard however solely based on the fact that my opinion differs from yours. That's an increddibly immature tact to take and I had expected more from you based on the few diolouges we'd had. On top of that you clearly didn't read my posts very well. It appears that you just skimmed my posts and let your biases and biggotry form your opinion of me. While i believe both Jim and Klinton understodd what I was saying yet dissagreed (respectfully I might add) you clearly didn't understand and are lashing out from a purely emotional stance. I wouldn't have thought someone so familiar with cognitive dissonence would be so suseptable to it's grasp.
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As for the Song of Soloman, if I want to read sexy middle eastern fairie tales I'll stick with 1001 Nights.
I brought up SoS for the sole purpouse of pointing out that teh idea of romantic love predates your claims. Frankly I believe romance in inherant in the human phychi.
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The core of the argument you make against gay marriage relies on Magical Thinking.
Throwing cliches at me proves nothing. I didn't know though that a wiccan would be so apposed to magic or as I see it spirituality.
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You believe that there is some intrensic superiority of straight marriages over gay marriages and somehow (magic?) gay marriages reduce the value of str8 unions.
This is a good example of you attributing an opinion to me that can be found nowhere in my post. I wonder why you would be so quick to challenge a proposition I never made?
Quote:
I think everyone agrees that procreation is not the only reason for str8 marriages so that leaves property, rights of inheritance as well as romantic love as the basis of marriage.
right and if you had read past your biase you would see that i think all these things should be afforded homosexuals as well as heterosexuals. You're arguing with your biggotry here, not with me.
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In what way does this differ between gay and str8 couples?
In that way there is no difference. I'm currious how many converts to your position you've made by calling swing voters bastards. Or do you care? Perhaps those who dissagree with you are inferior to you and not worth converting, who knows. I don't and I don't care. There's too much hate in this world for me to lose sleep over someone who can't see through thier hate for those who think differently from them. But hey hating people is sure alot easier than trying to understand them, so good luck with that and don't let the bastards get you down. I know I won't.
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
We really need to keep religion out of it. I know that offends some, but the black man getting to vote did, too.
I'm just pausing from making a new post in regards to Wanna's request so as to remind you that you tried that shit in the "11 states" thread. It didn't work. And it still won't.
Eat shit and die you hateful little troll!
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Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Not once do I see the posture of agknoledging that the opposition may have some legitimate concerns and an attemt to answer those concerns rather than dismiss them.
Being as respectful as possible here....we have so much more at stake here. For hundreds of years, gay people have been opressed, humiliated, hunted and murdered (yes, even in present day America). You will need to forgive the lack of respect, and the pointing of fingers at the obvious targets. Your 'legitimate' concerns as you refer to them echo the 'purity' of not letting interracial couples marry for 'legitimate' reasons. Don't think this is a half assed request, disregarding the well being of others. It is the product of so many influences...from the afformentioned bigotry, to the self consuming gay culture that has festered in the absence of legitimicy.
We want equality. Your marriage wont be any more or less than it already is by letting me and my boyfriend marry. It will merely allow us to address eachother as equals.
There you go again,acting like only gays are persecuted.
Scuse me for saying, give me a break.
Christians are still persecuted to this day. Many put to death for our beliefs. Heck, Christians can't even go to certain countries without fear of death. I knew a guy that went on a missions trip to the Middle East but only a couple people knew his exact location. If the wrong people found out, then he could have easily been killed.
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
False, the statistics that you're refering to are deceptive in thier presentation. The statistic that 50% of marraiges end in divorce takes into account second and third marraiges so people who keep remarrying over and over are factored into the numbers multiple times. The number of first marraiges that end in divorce is less than one third (wich is too high, but a far cry from over half.) Allow me to demonstrate how this works.
you have six people 1 2 3 4 5 6 all of whome get married. Person 1 and peson 2 both get divorces. they remarry, but because they were never good at commitment in the first place both of these marraiges end too. so they get married a third time again these marraiges also end in divorce, so now while we have 6 representives we have 10 marraiges half of wich ended in divorce however 3 4 5 and 6 all stayed married too the same person leaving us with a two thirds success rate umong our sample. That's where this false 50% number comes into play. And as far as using this as a factor of who holds marraige sacred even the less than one third marraiges that end in divorce doesn't take into account that in many of these cases there may an innocent party who still holds marraige as sacred.
Aren't we a bit off topic? Marriage was originally a means of forming strategic alliances between kinship groups. The concept of legitamacy of birth, you bastard, stems from the heritability of property.
No it wasn't.
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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Well, on this last point, we also are missing a ton of other inportant bits of information regarding divorce rates. Namely, the age of the people and the legnth of the marriages. My guess is that the majority of people still married or not divorced are old folks who are still married or widowed and people who have been married less than three years.
Regarding the larger points you addresed, society has changed a lot since our fuedalistic cultural family-joining-marriages. Marriage, for a LOT of Americans, has become tradition. The next step after 'going steady.' Personally I see no reason why we can't evolve past our previous social conceptions. Heck, back then women were wenches who worked in houses and slavery was just something that happened when you lost a battle.
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wannabuyamonkey said:Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Aren't we a bit off topic? Marriage was originally a means of forming strategic alliances between kinship groups. The concept of legitamacy of birth, ---> you bastard,<---
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You're technically correct, I am a bastard, but I'm a bastard because I never knew my father. He left shortly after getting my teen-aged mother pregnant. I am not technically a bastard however solely based on the fact that my opinion differs from yours. That's an increddibly immature tact to take and I had expected more from you based on the few diolouges we'd had. On top of that you clearly didn't read my posts very well. It appears that you just skimmed my posts and let your biases and biggotry form your opinion of me. While i believe both Jim and Klinton understodd what I was saying yet dissagreed (respectfully I might add) you clearly didn't understand and are lashing out from a purely emotional stance. I wouldn't have thought someone so familiar with cognitive dissonence would be so suseptable to it's grasp.
My apologies. The bastard thing was intended as a joke. I have a twisted and sarcastic sense of humour and I thought it would be funny. Apparently it wasn't. Again, sorry if I offended you. Fact is I like what you have to say though I don't always agree with it.
I'm really not strident about this issue. My opinion of marriage can be summed up as 'Been there, tried it, didn't like it. I'm one of the 50% or 33% or whatever proportion it is (only once). The next time I feel like getting married I'm just going to find a woman I really hate and buy her a house!
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I brought up SoS for the sole purpouse of pointing out that teh idea of romantic love predates your claims. Frankly I believe romance in inherant in the human phychi.
Agreed. My point is that it was not an essential element in the origins of the institution of marriage. It's late but I'll address your other thoughts in the AM.
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My apologies. The bastard thing was intended as a joke. I have a twisted and sarcastic sense of humour and I thought it would be funny. Apparently it wasn't. Again, sorry if I offended you.
I wasn't offended personally, I just interpreted your intergecting the term as an outburst of anger wich i saw as being counter-productive. The problem with type is it;s near impossible to interpret tone of vioce. If you said "you bastard" in certain tones of voice it would be obvious wether or not it was meant sarcastic. I have no issue with the word, I only throw my persoanl situation out as irony. If you say you were being sarcastic, i'll take your word for it. I know I've miscomunicated tone of voice through type plenty of times.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
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magicjay38 said:
Aren't we a bit off topic? Marriage was originally a means of forming strategic alliances between kinship groups. The concept of legitamacy of birth, ---> you bastard,<---
You're technically correct, I am a bastard, but I'm a bastard because I never knew my father. He left shortly after getting my teen-aged mother pregnant. I am not technically a bastard however solely based on the fact that my opinion differs from yours. That's an increddibly immature tact to take and I had expected more from you based on the few diolouges we'd had. On top of that you clearly didn't read my posts very well. It appears that you just skimmed my posts and let your biases and biggotry form your opinion of me. While i believe both Jim and Klinton understodd what I was saying yet dissagreed (respectfully I might add) you clearly didn't understand and are lashing out from a purely emotional stance.
I thought he was making a joke.
It reminded me of SOUTH PARK.
"They killed Kenny."
"You bastards!"
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Batwoman said:
Christians are still persecuted to this day.
I believe the argument is being confined to the United States. The land of the free and the home of the brave.
I have no representation in the Middle East, therefore, I can cast no vote for change there.
And I believe that Jews and Arabs are also being killed in the Middle East. Christians are not unique in that regard.
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I didn't say the Middle East is the only place Christians are killed for their beliefs. Pay attention to what I said! I was using it as an example!
There are other countries where Christians, to this very day are being killed.
and no, the argument wasn't confined to the US. He said gays are persecuted and used the US as an example, just as I did the same with the ME.
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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Batwoman said:
I didn't say the Middle East is the only place Christians are killed for their beliefs. Pay attention to what I said! I was using it as an example!
There are other countries where Christians, to this very day are being killed.
and no, the argument wasn't confined to the US. He said gays are persecuted and used the US as an example, just as I did the same with the ME.
You're right. Jim, pay attention.
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klinton said:
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Batwoman said:
I didn't say the Middle East is the only place Christians are killed for their beliefs. Pay attention to what I said! I was using it as an example!
There are other countries where Christians, to this very day are being killed.
and no, the argument wasn't confined to the US. He said gays are persecuted and used the US as an example, just as I did the same with the ME.
You're right. Jim, pay attention.
It's hard to because she's an idiot.
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Batwoman said:
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magicjay38 said:
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wannabuyamonkey said:
False, the statistics that you're refering to are deceptive in thier presentation. The statistic that 50% of marraiges end in divorce takes into account second and third marraiges so people who keep remarrying over and over are factored into the numbers multiple times. The number of first marraiges that end in divorce is less than one third (wich is too high, but a far cry from over half.) Allow me to demonstrate how this works.
you have six people 1 2 3 4 5 6 all of whome get married. Person 1 and peson 2 both get divorces. they remarry, but because they were never good at commitment in the first place both of these marraiges end too. so they get married a third time again these marraiges also end in divorce, so now while we have 6 representives we have 10 marraiges half of wich ended in divorce however 3 4 5 and 6 all stayed married too the same person leaving us with a two thirds success rate umong our sample. That's where this false 50% number comes into play. And as far as using this as a factor of who holds marraige sacred even the less than one third marraiges that end in divorce doesn't take into account that in many of these cases there may an innocent party who still holds marraige as sacred.
Aren't we a bit off topic? Marriage was originally a means of forming strategic alliances between kinship groups. The concept of legitamacy of birth, you bastard, stems from the heritability of property.
No it wasn't.
Care to elaborate?
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wannabuyamonkey said:
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The core of the argument you make against gay marriage relies on Magical Thinking.
Throwing cliches at me proves nothing. I didn't know though that a wiccan would be so apposed to magic or as I see it spirituality.
Magical thinking is fine in it's place. I certainly am guilty of it myself. But I confine it to spirituality and my beliefs about the nature of reality. I have no right to impose my spiritual beliefs on others. Law and reason are completely different arenas.
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You believe that there is some intrensic superiority of straight marriages over gay marriages and somehow (magic?) gay marriages reduce the value of str8 unions.
This is a good example of you attributing an opinion to me that can be found nowhere in my post. I wonder why you would be so quick to challenge a proposition I never made?
Well, what is that it's not the same thing all about?
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I think everyone agrees that procreation is not the only reason for str8 marriages so that leaves property, rights of inheritance as well as romantic love as the basis of marriage.
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right and if you had read past your biase you would see that i think all these things should be afforded homosexuals as well as heterosexuals. You're arguing with your biggotry here, not with me.
I know you support the idea of a contract equal to marriage in terms of the rights it bestows on couples. You seem to have a problem with calling it marriage. So what should we call it? I gave 2 suggestions in the original post. My own feeling is if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck......
BTW, I'm not a bigot.
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In what way does this differ between gay and str8 couples?
In that way there is no difference. I'm currious how many converts to your position you've made by calling swing voters bastards. Or do you care? Perhaps those who dissagree with you are inferior to you and not worth converting, who knows. I don't and I don't care. There's too much hate in this world for me to lose sleep over someone who can't see through thier hate for those who think differently from them. But hey hating people is sure alot easier than trying to understand them, so good luck with that and don't let the bastards get you down. I know I won't.
I don't hate people for their opinions. Well, the GOD HATES FAGS groups that protested at Mathew Shepard's funeral are an exception. I do like to stir things up though. Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
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Jim Jackson said:
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klinton said:
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Batwoman said:
I didn't say the Middle East is the only place Christians are killed for their beliefs. Pay attention to what I said! I was using it as an example!
There are other countries where Christians, to this very day are being killed.
and no, the argument wasn't confined to the US. He said gays are persecuted and used the US as an example, just as I did the same with the ME.
You're right. Jim, pay attention.
It's hard to because she's an idiot.
I don't see anything inherently idiotic in that post. Do you deny that Christian persecution exists?
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Jim Jackson said:
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wannabuyamonkey said:
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magicjay38 said:
Aren't we a bit off topic? Marriage was originally a means of forming strategic alliances between kinship groups. The concept of legitamacy of birth, ---> you bastard,<---
You're technically correct, I am a bastard, but I'm a bastard because I never knew my father. He left shortly after getting my teen-aged mother pregnant. I am not technically a bastard however solely based on the fact that my opinion differs from yours. That's an increddibly immature tact to take and I had expected more from you based on the few diolouges we'd had. On top of that you clearly didn't read my posts very well. It appears that you just skimmed my posts and let your biases and biggotry form your opinion of me. While i believe both Jim and Klinton understodd what I was saying yet dissagreed (respectfully I might add) you clearly didn't understand and are lashing out from a purely emotional stance.
I thought he was making a joke.
It reminded me of SOUTH PARK.
"They killed Kenny."
"You bastards!"
I think MJ is a her not a he, and like I'd said reading it in that tone COMPLETELY changes teh context. Messagboard debate is a bitch.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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the G-man said:
I don't see anything inherently idiotic in that post. Do you deny that Christian persecution exists?
In the US? Yes, I deny it exists in any substantive way. And I thought the discussion was about gay marriage in the US and Canada. I can't help what goes on in the Middle East in terms of who does or doesn't get persecuted.
There are times that I don't want to "play nice" because of BW and especially Pariah. WBAM is perhaps the only str8 who posts regularly in this thread who at least tries to see the gay side of things.
Last edited by Jim Jackson; 2005-06-09 6:00 PM.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
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Jim Jackson said:
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wannabuyamonkey said:
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magicjay38 said:
Aren't we a bit off topic? Marriage was originally a means of forming strategic alliances between kinship groups. The concept of legitamacy of birth, ---> you bastard,<---
You're technically correct, I am a bastard, but I'm a bastard because I never knew my father. He left shortly after getting my teen-aged mother pregnant. I am not technically a bastard however solely based on the fact that my opinion differs from yours. That's an increddibly immature tact to take and I had expected more from you based on the few diolouges we'd had. On top of that you clearly didn't read my posts very well. It appears that you just skimmed my posts and let your biases and biggotry form your opinion of me. While i believe both Jim and Klinton understodd what I was saying yet dissagreed (respectfully I might add) you clearly didn't understand and are lashing out from a purely emotional stance.
I thought he was making a joke.
It reminded me of SOUTH PARK.
"They killed Kenny."
"You bastards!"
I think MJ is a her not a he, and like I'd said reading it in that tone COMPLETELY changes teh context. Messagboard debate is a bitch.
My apologies for any gender misidentification.
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Well, what is that it's not the same thing all about?
Saying something is "not the same" doesn't denote superiority on either side. That's why I used several example of things that are different, but equal. Men and women, me and you etc...
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I know you support the idea of a contract equal to marriage in terms of the rights it bestows on couples. You seem to have a problem with calling it marriage. So what should we call it? I gave 2 suggestions in the original post. My own feeling is if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck......
I don't know, "Unions", hell if someone wants to call it marraige and view it as the same and get married in a church I have no problem with that. I just don't want govenment to take a stand. I want government to remain nutral.
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BTW, I'm not a bigot.
Yea, well I was still reading your post in "angry voice" and you WERE attributing ideas to me that I don't promote.
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I don't hate people for their opinions. Well, the GOD HATES FAGS groups that protested at Mathew Shepard's funeral are an exception.
But do you hate them because they dissagree with you or do you hate them because they hate you and they harrass you and they insult you etc...?
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Jim Jackson said:There are times that I don't want to "play nice" because of BW and especially Pariah. WBAM is perhaps the only str8 who posts regularly in this thread who at least tries to see the gay side of things.
So refusal or inability to see the other side of a debate makes one an idiot in an your eyes?
Couldn't Christians therefore argue that homosexuals who refuse to/can't see/easily dismiss the Christian argument against homosexuality are idiots also?
Being gay doesn't make one an expert on homosexuality anymore than being Christian makes anyone an expert on morality.
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Jim Jackson said:
There are times that I don't want to "play nice" because of BW and especially Pariah. WBAM is perhaps the only str8 who posts regularly in this thread who at least tries to see the gay side of things.
Thanks alot Jim, now all my guy friends are gonna make fun of me 
In all seriousness, I don't think of it as the gay side of the issue, but as the human side. I'm not a proponant of the act of homosexuality, but I don't view people as being defined by any single aspect of thier life. My faith teaches me that everyone is equal before the Lord. People's behavious is of no concern of mine.
And interesting side note. Growing up I had a lisp, my favorite color is purple and my favorite musical artist for the longest time was Morrisey and i freely hug my guy friends and dress up when I go see Rocky Horror, so I've been made fun of plenty of times for being gay. Not being gay I could have either become a raging homo-phobe or be more understanding. I chose the latter.
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the G-man said:
Being gay doesn't make one an expert on homosexuality anymore than being Christian makes anyone an expert on morality.
Bad analogy.
Only gays can be homosexual. But morality is not the sole province of Christians.
And do NOT generalize beyond what I said to BW to anyone else. Bad form, specious reasoning.
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the G-man said:
Being gay doesn't make one an expert on homosexuality anymore than being Christian makes anyone an expert on morality.
Hmm. I think that analogy is flawed. Living as a gay person does place you in the position to analyze what your life is missing, and where society needs to work on itself. This is a unique position that most people in here can't see, as is obvious. In my head, it's not really a debate. People need to come to grips with whatever it is inside them that would allow them to deny me equality. The only true immorality going on here is the ability for people to look at me, and people like myself, and see a second class citizen. I'm confident enough with my life to demand this. There is no compramise.
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