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Quote:
the G-man said:
Being gay doesn't make one an expert on homosexuality anymore than being Christian makes anyone an expert on morality.
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Bad analogy.
Only gays can be homosexual. But morality is not the sole province of Christians.
And do NOT generalize beyond what I said to BW to anyone else. Bad form, specious reasoning.
You are correct. My analogy would been better to read "Being gay doesn't make one an expert on homosexuality anymore than being Christian makes anyone an expert on Christianity."
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I would think gays the best experts on homosexuality and Christians the best experts on Christianity.
Or at least, gays better experts on being gay and Christians better experts on Christianity.
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In all seriousness, I don't think of it as the gay side of the issue, but as the human side. I'm not a proponant of the act of homosexuality, but I don't view people as being defined by any single aspect of thier life. My faith teaches me that everyone is equal before the Lord. People's behavious is of no concern of mine.
And interesting side note. Growing up I had a lisp, my favorite color is purple and my favorite musical artist for the longest time was Morrisey and i freely hug my guy friends and dress up when I go see Rocky Horror, so I've been made fun of plenty of times for being gay. Not being gay I could have either become a raging homo-phobe or be more understanding. I chose the latter.
Here we have it! He's a closet crossdresser! Jim, Beardguy does that make him one of us?
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Or at least, gays better experts on being gay and Christians better experts on Christianity.
And catholics are experts on....what, exactly?
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
I would think gays the best experts on homosexuality and Christians the best experts on Christianity.
Or at least, gays better experts on being gay and Christians better experts on Christianity.
One can also argue, however, that this makes each group somewhat prejudiced on their own behalf and less willing to evaluate the pros and cons of their positions objectively.
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Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
Being gay doesn't make one an expert on homosexuality anymore than being Christian makes anyone an expert on morality.
Hmm. I think that analogy is flawed. Living as a gay person does place you in the position to analyze what your life is missing, and where society needs to work on itself. This is a unique position that most people in here can't see, as is obvious. In my head, it's not really a debate. People need to come to grips with whatever it is inside them that would allow them to deny me equality. The only true immorality going on here is the ability for people to look at me, and people like myself, and see a second class citizen. I'm confident enough with my life to demand this. There is no compramise.
People use different ways to deal with it. Some remain deeply in the closet. Others live in constant shame. Perhaps G-man uses Roy Cohn as his role model?
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As I pointed out previously, I don't oppose gay rights per se and do not oppose legislative enactments to allow them.
But at the same time, I don't oppose a discussion of the pros and cons of the issue and, in fact, specifically noted earlier that I was playing "Devil's Advocate" on many of these points.
However, even when not playing "devil's advocate," I'm not going to shy away from stating when I think logic is specious or where a party might be speaking from prejudice more than logic.
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
In all seriousness, I don't think of it as the gay side of the issue, but as the human side. I'm not a proponant of the act of homosexuality, but I don't view people as being defined by any single aspect of thier life. My faith teaches me that everyone is equal before the Lord. People's behavious is of no concern of mine.
And interesting side note. Growing up I had a lisp, my favorite color is purple and my favorite musical artist for the longest time was Morrisey and i freely hug my guy friends and dress up when I go see Rocky Horror, so I've been made fun of plenty of times for being gay. Not being gay I could have either become a raging homo-phobe or be more understanding. I chose the latter.
Here we have it! He's a closet crossdresser! Jim, Beardguy does that make him one of us?
I can't answer that based on just the little he said.
But referencing Morrisey is not a good sign...
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Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Or at least, gays better experts on being gay and Christians better experts on Christianity.
And catholics are experts on....what, exactly?
Inquisitions.
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Hey, Jim Jackson didn't choose to revive the word "Inquisition", that was 'ol Ratzi.
Because the word has such pleasant connotations, i'm sure.
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
People use different ways to deal with it. Some remain deeply in the closet. Others live in constant shame. Perhaps G-man uses Roy Cohn as his role model?
The Roy Cohn card has been played!
The kid gloves are off!
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Wasn't he Mcarthy's gay little bitch?
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Quote:
PJP said:
Wasn't he Mcarthy's gay little bitch?
Yes.
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One day I need to make a listing of all the self-loathing gay Republicans currently running around.....
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
In all seriousness, I don't think of it as the gay side of the issue, but as the human side. I'm not a proponant of the act of homosexuality, but I don't view people as being defined by any single aspect of thier life. My faith teaches me that everyone is equal before the Lord. People's behavious is of no concern of mine.
And interesting side note. Growing up I had a lisp, my favorite color is purple and my favorite musical artist for the longest time was Morrisey and i freely hug my guy friends and dress up when I go see Rocky Horror, so I've been made fun of plenty of times for being gay. Not being gay I could have either become a raging homo-phobe or be more understanding. I chose the latter.
Here we have it! He's a closet crossdresser! Jim, Beardguy does that make him one of us?
I can't answer that based on just the little he said.
But referencing Morrisey is not a good sign...
Yea, the only problem is I'm increddibly attracted to women and don't have the slightest desire to have sex with a man. i think that disqualifies me. You would have fun with a buddy of mine, however who's a straight Christian who met his wife (yes the female variety) at a gay bar.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
[Yea, the only problem is I'm increddibly attracted to women and don't have the slightest desire to have sex with a man. i think that disqualifies me. You would have fun with a buddy of mine, however who's a straight Christian who met his wife (yes the female variety) at a gay bar.
And how would I have fun with him?
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unrestrained id said:
One day I need to make a listing of all the self-loathing gay Republicans currently running around.....
This reminds me of a buddy of mine who represents the local Log Cabin Republicans. He described two events where they set up booths. The Republican Picknick and a gay pride parade. At teh Republicans he said there was one cranky old guy who muttered a rude comment to him but for the entire day that was it. he said everyone there treated him with respect even though the grounds were crawling with "Good 'ol boys" and religious conservitives. On the other hand he was run out of the gay pride parade with shouts and people spitting on him and his partner and even had a bottle thrown at him by people who hated him for being gay? no, by people who hated him for being a Republican. At an event that was supposed to be a place where he was supposed to be proud of who he was he was run out for not sharing ALL thier beliefs.
Your comment reminded me of that because by your derrogitory preface you make it clear that you don't accept homosexuals. You only accept homosexuals who are willing to drink your political Kool-Aide.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Oh and, i have to admit I was a total Jack-ass! MJ is a dude not a lady. I don't know where I got the idea from but it was stuck in my head. All appologies.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Oh and, i have to admit I was a total Jack-ass! MJ is a dude not a lady. I don't know where I got the idea from but it was stuck in my head. All appologies.
I really wasn't offended, Monkey Salesman. I'll confess to a bit of gender dysphoria. I like drag. Alot. But, that's another topic......
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
unrestrained id said:
One day I need to make a listing of all the self-loathing gay Republicans currently running around.....
This reminds me of a buddy of mine who represents the local Log Cabin Republicans. He described two events where they set up booths. The Republican Picknick and a gay pride parade. At teh Republicans he said there was one cranky old guy who muttered a rude comment to him but for the entire day that was it. he said everyone there treated him with respect even though the grounds were crawling with "Good 'ol boys" and religious conservitives. On the other hand he was run out of the gay pride parade with shouts and people spitting on him and his partner and even had a bottle thrown at him by people who hated him for being gay? no, by people who hated him for being a Republican. At an event that was supposed to be a place where he was supposed to be proud of who he was he was run out for not sharing ALL thier beliefs.
Your comment reminded me of that because by your derrogitory preface you make it clear that you don't accept homosexuals. You only accept homosexuals who are willing to drink your political Kool-Aide.
I'm sorry your friend had that experience but Log Cabin Republicans are like Jews for Hitler. In previous administrations I could understand it. Reagan/Bush for example paid lip service to the Religious Right but did very little to advance their agenda. The current administration actually believes that bullshit.
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Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Or at least, gays better experts on being gay and Christians better experts on Christianity.
And catholics are experts on....what, exactly?
A friend of mine who is Catholic says that Catholics are experts at Guilt.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok. 
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I'm sorry your friend had that experience but Log Cabin Republicans are like Jews for Hitler.
Are you equating not granting you legislation that you desire to exterminating you in death camps?
There ARE other political issues on the table. I realize the example I gave was aneqdotal, but it should show that Republicans are at least willing to listen. Your talking about a group that agrees with the Republicans on most issues and hopes to convince them of others. The mere fact that you sited past administrations brings up another difference, when dealing with Hitler there would be no forseeable future administrations. I like Bush, but even if you don't he's only temporary, but it was difficult for my friend to explain this whith spit on his face and bottles bounceing off his head (the final irony being that this story took place in 2000)
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
[Yea, the only problem is I'm increddibly attracted to women and don't have the slightest desire to have sex with a man. i think that disqualifies me. You would have fun with a buddy of mine, however who's a straight Christian who met his wife (yes the female variety) at a gay bar.
And how would I have fun with him?
I just meant the way you were joking about my enjoying Morrisey.
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
Christians are still persecuted to this day. Many put to death for our beliefs. Heck, Christians can't even go to certain countries without fear of death. I knew a guy that went on a missions trip to the Middle East but only a couple people knew his exact location. If the wrong people found out, then he could have easily been killed.
It seems strange to reduce what is intended to be an inclusive view of life (i.e. Christianity) and turn it into an exclusive club a la the Boy Scouts. People only matter if measure up to a separate definition of what a "person" is. Oh well...
Pariah--
I didn't get the MENSA reference? Are you implying that you were accepted to MENSA at the age of five?
...you tell stories, we tell lies.
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Quote:
theory9 said:
Quote:
Batwoman said:
Christians are still persecuted to this day. Many put to death for our beliefs. Heck, Christians can't even go to certain countries without fear of death. I knew a guy that went on a missions trip to the Middle East but only a couple people knew his exact location. If the wrong people found out, then he could have easily been killed.
It seems strange to reduce what is intended to be an inclusive view of life (i.e. Christianity) and turn it into an exclusive club a la the Boy Scouts. People only matter if measure up to a separate definition of what a "person" is. Oh well...
Pariah--
I didn't get the MENSA reference? Are you implying that you were accepted to MENSA at the age of five?
I realize we're getting off topic, but your comment really confused me. Christianity is inclusive, but inclusive in that anyone is welcome to follow the rules of Christianity. If you say "I don't believe in Jesus" that is absolutely fine. You can still come to church, but you're not a Christian. You don't get to show up and say "I'm a Christian" and you're in. There are certain "qualifications" such as the belief in Christ. The other stuff about people only matter if you "measure up" that's of course bull. The church doesn't support that. We don't redefine what a "person" is. I didn't read all of BW's posts, but none of that was communicated in the post you quoted.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I realize we're getting off topic, but your comment really confused me. Christianity is inclusive
There are far too many posters who do not portray their faith as inclusive but rather exclusive.
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Christian Coalition: Gay Warning Labels
by 365Gay.com Newscenter Staff
Posted: June 13, 2005 12:01 am ET Updated 5:00 pm ET
(New York City) The leader of a conservative Christian lobby group appears to suggest that gays should be required to wear warning labels, although he denies that was his intention.
"We put warning labels on cigarette packs because we know that smoking takes one to two years off the average life span, yet we 'celebrate' a lifestyle that we know spreads every kind of sexually transmitted disease and takes at least 20 years off the average life span according to the 2005 issue of the revered scientific journal Psychological Reports," Rev. Bill Banuchi, executive director of the New York Christian Coalition told the Mid Hudson News.
The journal regularly publishes articles described by many mainstream psychologists as misleading and faulty. The homosexuality morbidity study was conducted by the conservative anti-gay Family Research Institute.
Banuchi called LGBT Pride celebrations held in New Paltz, north of New York City, and other areas of the country on the weekend "sad".
He called on people to "pray for those who are deceived by the lies of popular culture, who are caught up in a destructive lifestyle, and for the children who are being zealously evangelized by radical homosexuals."
Despite using the analogy of cigarette labels, Banuchi tells 365Gay.com that he is not advocating gays specifically be labeled.
Banuchi also alleges that he has received hate mail since his remarks were published.
The issue of labels is particularly sensitive to gays. In Nazi Germany they were forced to wear the pink triangle to differentiate them from other internees at concentration camps.
[url=http://www.robkamphausen.com/ubbthreads/...e=0&fpart=2 ]the G-man said[/url]
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But a fair number of gays now wear pink triangles as a badge of honor, so go figure.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
But a fair number of gays now wear pink triangles as a badge of honor, so go figure.
I can't recall seeing any gay man where a triangle as a badge of honor. Where did you get this?
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I stand by my remark of never having seen a gay man wear a pink triangle.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
unrestrained id said:
One day I need to make a listing of all the self-loathing gay Republicans currently running around.....
This reminds me of a buddy of mine who represents the local Log Cabin Republicans. He described two events where they set up booths. The Republican Picknick and a gay pride parade. At teh Republicans he said there was one cranky old guy who muttered a rude comment to him but for the entire day that was it. he said everyone there treated him with respect even though the grounds were crawling with "Good 'ol boys" and religious conservitives. On the other hand he was run out of the gay pride parade with shouts and people spitting on him and his partner and even had a bottle thrown at him by people who hated him for being gay? no, by people who hated him for being a Republican. At an event that was supposed to be a place where he was supposed to be proud of who he was he was run out for not sharing ALL thier beliefs.
Your comment reminded me of that because by your derrogitory preface you make it clear that you don't accept homosexuals. You only accept homosexuals who are willing to drink your political Kool-Aide.
People disgust me. It's the 21 st century, and they are still doing crap like throwing stuff at people because they or their views are different.
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Well, I know gay people who where the pink triangle (around here it's mostly rainbow bumper stickers or t's though) The difference is that people sport these things so that folks like Banuchi have a tougher time making their sales pitch. My friends & neighbors can either believe what people like Banuchi paint gay people or me (exhibit A).
Fair play!
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
I stand by my remark of never having seen a gay man wear a pink triangle.
It's fairly prevalent in college towns.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I realize we're getting off topic, but your comment really confused me. Christianity is inclusive
There are far too many posters who do not portray their faith as inclusive but rather exclusive.
Bingo.
And I would say that far too many people who don't portray their faith as inclusive, but rather exclusive.
...you tell stories, we tell lies.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
I stand by my remark of never having seen a gay man wear a pink triangle.
It's fairly prevalent in college towns.
I gotta ask....
How the hell do you know? I live in a college town...in fact, the college town with the largest on-campus student body in the States. And I'm near or on-campus weekly and I have NEVER seen a gay man wearing a pink triangle. And I have a part-time research job that's located in one of the biggest gay neighborhoods in the City. I've never seen so much as a bumper sticker with a pink triangle.
Btw, WTF is a "gay warning label"?
Last edited by Jim Jackson; 2005-06-15 12:42 PM.
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Maybe its a regional thing. On the East Coast I've seen them in college towns such as Ithaca, Syracuse, and Boston, not to mention NYC.
I've also seen them on Cape Cod near and in Provincetown.
And don't ask me what a gay warning label is. That's something "Gannon" brought up.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Maybe its a regional thing.
...which therefore brings into questions its "prevelance."
We all wear a green carnation.
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