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Quote:
Batwoman said:
Funny, why did they want to take prayer out of schools? I bet you if we did have prayer in schools these type of shooting would have been avoided. You never heard of anything like that happening in schools when prayer was allowed.
The most simple-minded analysis advanced on this topic yet.
Way to go, BW, way to go.
I'll bet you believe that if Hitler'd gotten into art school, WWII would never have happened either.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
Don't remember what page it was on anymore, but to go back to something JJ said about doubting Christians are persecuted in the US, I just saw a post from a friend on another board and it reminded me that yes, Christians are persecuted in the US in this day and age.
By the way don't forget the persecuted people in America.
How about the school shootings? The Columbine shootings and also the most recent on an Indian Resevation. What state was that?
Anway in both incidents the shooters asked the other studens, "Do you believe in God?" I do believe the kids said yes, and then they got shot. I know for certain the Columbine killers were into Satanism, so that type of persection does happen here in America. Funny, why did they want to take prayer out of schools? I bet you if we did have prayer in schools these type of shooting would have been avoided. You never heard of anything like that happening in schools when prayer was allowed.
I believe you're using isolated incidents to prove a larger conspiracy, with little evidence to back it up. To attempt to use a tragedy such as Columbine to trumpet the need for prayer in schools is simply wrong-headed. Schools that allow prayer have less problems because of the fact that parents have to pay for their children to go there, and also have a bond of familiarity through the church. The issue you seem unwilling to acknowledge, however, is the idea that American public high schools are rarely melting pots. Often, there are extensive elemenets of passive and active cruelty. Teenage years are difficult no matter where one is socially and economically; this doesn't excuse anyone's behavior, but does provide a more reasonable backdrop than your assertion about school prayer.
Another distressing point is people's desire to make what is a secular country and transform it into some Augustinian City of God. The preservation of the separation of church and state allows freedom for all to worship (or not). As it stands now, your hollow accusations of Christian abuse prove that you lack compassion for all human beings, instead choosing to use an arbitrary filter through which to view the world. People should be worried about people, rather than allowing some to slip through the cracks (most likely homosexuals in your case) and decrying others (Christians).
When you mentioned persecution, why didn't you bring up Matthew Shepard? Or this? The act of persecution is not specific to the Christian sect.
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As always you people don't even bother to read what I wrote, instead pick at it proving nothing.
I was talking about Christians being persecuted in the US in this day and age.
Which goes back to Klinton's whining about gays being persecuted in this day and age. Acting as if gays are the only ones being persecuted.
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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Just put the bitch on ignore, Jim... Until she can learn to distinguish reality from whatever little kingdom it is she exists in, there's little to say.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
As always you people don't even bother to read what I wrote, instead pick at it proving nothing.
I was talking about Christians being persecuted in the US in this day and age.
Which goes back to Klinton's whining about gays being persecuted in this day and age. Acting as if gays are the only ones being persecuted.
Ummm...actually, theory9 did an apt job of dispelling that exact point. But I'll transform and add to it here.
You are trying to show that Christians are being persecuted because the victims of the Columbine shootings said they believed in God.
One problem with this, though, is that there are people who believe in God who are not Christian. Jews believe in God, Muslims believe in God, etc, etc. Your example shows the victimization of a few monotheistic believers, but it simply can't be narrowed to Christians.
Also, if a college professor mistreats me, or even all the African-American students in my class, stating that this is proof of the mistreatment of African-Americans within the U.S. school system is still a misleading statement. It's one occurence within, sure, but the statement implies a wide-spread problem and one incident does not an epidemic make.
You also make the point that prayer has been taken out of public schools. I say, however, that this is not Christian persecution. My first reason is the similar to that which I stated above: Jews pray, Muslims pray. Practicioners of other religions pray, therefore you can not narrow the affected group to Christians, as you did.
The second reason is that the act itself isn't even persecution. As an example: if the government announced that Black History Month would no longer be observed, this would not be persecution since there is no ill-treatment involved. Same if a company decides to skip Christmas bonuses one year. There is no mental or physical harm, simply the removal of a benefit (or, in the first example, observance), so there is no persecution.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
You also make the point that prayer has been taken out of public schools.
It's not a prayer. It's symbolism. There are many different meanings for "God" to everyone. Most people in America just like to associate it with Christianity cuz' they hold a grudge.
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or want to feel persecuted.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
It's not a prayer. It's symbolism. There are many different meanings for "God" to everyone. Most people in America just like to associate it with Christianity cuz' they hold a grudge.
...even though most people in America are Christians?
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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That's not all together true anymore. Either way, I did over-generalize.
The point is "God" hasn't just meant spirituality over the past century, but has more been alluded to lately as a symbol of justice and compassion.
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
Funny, why did they want to take prayer out of schools? I bet you if we did have prayer in schools these type of shooting would have been avoided. You never heard of anything like that happening in schools when prayer was allowed.
...are you serious?
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
That's not all together true anymore.
According to the ARIS study circa 2001, 76.5% of Americans(not included Alaskans or Hawaiins) identified themselves as Christians.
So, as with the old "it's not fashionable to be Christian" thread, I have a hard time believing there's some big conspiracy against Christians, or that most people have a grudge.
Quote:
Either way, I did over-generalize.
The point is "God" hasn't just meant spirituality over the past century, but has more been alluded to lately as a symbol of justice and compassion.
I don't know about "more alluded". Generally, the idea of God is still a spiritual one, even if it has found its way into certain colloquialisms.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
Teen blogs on forced trip to ‘ex-gay’ camp
16-year-old says coming out prompted action by parents
By DYANA BAGBY
Friday, June 17, 2005
A Tennessee teen is claiming in a blog that he was forcibly admitted into an “ex-gay” camp by his parents after coming out as gay, gaining attention from media outlets and gay activists.
Zach, a 16-year-old from Bartlett, Tenn., was sent to the camp Refuge, associated with Love In Action near Memphis June 6 and is to remain there at least until June 20, according to his June 3 blog entry.
Love In Action, an ex-gay ministry, is accredited by the ex-gay group Exodus International and supported by numerous area churches in Memphis. Officials with the ministry on Wednesday would not confirm whether the teen was enrolled. A friend contacted by this newspaper would not confirm Zach’s full name. His parents could also not be identified.
Gay activists tracking the teen’s plight have organized daily protests since June 6 outside Love In Action’s facility in Memphis. The organization scheduled a press conference for June 16, after this publication’s press deadline, to address the growing controversy.
“LIA is calling upon the community to extend open-minded consideration and tolerance towards young people with same-sex attraction who are currently undergoing the organization’s youth program called Refuge,” according to a press statement from the organization.
Wayne Besen, a gay author who tracks the “ex-gay” movement, said the teen is likely to experience psychological damage.
“This is significant child abuse,” said Besen, author of “Anything But Straight: Unmasking the Scandals & Lies Behind the Ex-Gay Myth.”
‘Raised me wrong’
On May 29, the teen blogged that his parents sat him down and told him he was going to a “fundamentalist Christian program for gays.”
“They tell me that there is something psychologically wrong with me, and they ‘raised me wrong.’ I’m a big screw up to them, who isn’t on the path God wants me to be on. So I’m sitting here in tears, [joining] the rest of those kids who complain about their parents on blogs — and I can’t help it,” Zach wrote.
“I’ve been through hell. I’ve been emotionally torn apart for three days... I can’t remember which days they were … time’s not what it used to be,” the teen wrote in his last blog entry, posted June 3.
The teen also posted what he said were an exhaustive set of rules for Refuge that were e-mailed to his parents: “No hugging or physical touch between clients. Brief handshakes or a brief affirmative hand on a shoulder is allowed
“[Love In Action] wants to encourage each client, male and female, by affirming his/her gender identity,” the rules continued. “LIA also wants each client to pursue integrity in all of his/her actions and appearances. Therefore, any belongings, appearances, clothing, actions, or humor that might connect a client to an inappropriate past are excluded from the program.
“These hindrances are called False Images,” according to the rules. “F.I. behavior may include hyper-masculinity, seductive clothing, mannish/boyish attire (on women), excessive jewelry (on men), mascoting, and ‘campy’ or gay/lesbian behavior and talk.”
Camp participants are also forbidden specifically from wearing any clothing by Calvin Klein or Abercrombie & Fitch.
Refuge offers a two-week program for $1,500 and a six-week program for $4,000, according to its Web site. Since its inception three years ago, the program has hosted more than 20 participants, according to Rev. John Smid, Love In Action’s executive director, who is married to a woman and claims to have left behind “the homosexual lifestyle,” if not same-sex attractions.
Founded upon deception’?
Gay bloggers and allies who track the teen’s thoughts about being sent to the program created additional blogs to support the teen and refute the reparative therapy practiced by Love In Action.
Blogger ‘Zach,’ 16, of Bartlett, Tenn.
Supporters also took part in daily demonstrations that started June 6, Zach’s apparent first day in the program, at Love In Action’s Memphis headquarters.
“The history of organizations like Love In Action are founded upon deception and have been proven ineffective and damaging to people,” said Morgan Fox, an organizer of Queer Action Coalition who said she is a friend of Zach’s.
The coalition formed in direct response to the teen’s blogs, Fox said.
“He’s probably been there about two weeks. But they shut you off from the world when you’re in,” Fox said.
Zach’s blog indicates that his cell phone had been taken from him and he only accessed his computer to post a blog entry by waiting until his parents were asleep.
About 30 people take part in the daily protests, said Kevin Gilliland, a member of the Memphis Gay & Lesbian Community Center.
“We’re in the buckle of the Bible Belt, and [the teen] has brought a lot of attention to [the ex-gay movement]. A lot of the people protesting are teens. This is an issue of psychological abuse,” Gilliland said.
‘Obligation’ of parents
Supporters of the teen are e-mailing Love In Action to express their opposition to the program, said Smid, who underwent the program in 1987 and is now the center’s executive director.
“It appears to me, from what I am hearing, they feel a sense of bond with other young people and they desire to rescue them,” Smid said in an interview Wednesday.
Smid declined to comment specifically about Zach. But he said parents of gay teens have an obligation to teach their children to live “healthy lifestyles.”
“There has to be a safeguard … other than a condom. We need to work with the mind and intellect [of gay teens],” he said.
Smid acknowledged the teen blogger’s posts highlighted a breakdown in communication among the family members and that Refuge works as a “bridge” to facilitate a better relationship between teens and their parents.
Smid said Refuge’s rules, including a ban on secular music, specifically including non-Christian classical music by Bach or Beethoven, are critical to the success of the program.
“While here, they only listen to Christ-centered music to help ponder their lives,” Smid said. “We try to minimize external resources and make sure they’re not bombarded.”
Message in a bottle’
Love In Action International, founded 32 years ago, is the oldest known “ex-gay” organization, said Besen, author of “Anything But Straight.”
“These organizations hold them captive, basically as prisoners. They are boot camps,” he said.
Besen commended Zach’s courage in taking his story to the Web.
“It’s the modern-age message in a bottle,” he said. “Here he is on this hideous island of ignorance, and he’s sent his message out and now people are trying to rescue him.”
“This is a new spin on a terrible old story. He’s very innovative — it shows the power of the Internet for our community,” Besen added.
The author said “ex-gay” organizations that focus on adolescents are more difficult to track than programs for adults because they often market their programs as church camps.
“These groups inflict significant child abuse. They destroy and demolish the self-worth of young men and women,” he said.
[url=http://www.robkamphausen.com/ubbthreads/...e=0&fpart=2 ]the G-man said[/url]
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Quote:
Tenn. investigates ex-gay camp
Teen's blog leads to outcry, charges of abuse at unlicensed facility
By EARTHA MELZER | Jun 23, 1:53 PM
The state of Tennessee has begun an investigation in response to allegations of child abuse at Love in Action, a Memphis facility that advertises homosexual conversion therapy for adolescents, according to the state department of health.
K. Daniele Edwards, a spokesperson for Child Services at the Tennessee Department of Health, confirmed an investigation is underway but declined to comment on the details. She noted that she presumes the Love in Action program would require licensing by the state.
Gay activists protested outside an unlicensed 'ex-gay' facility run by Love In Action, which Tennessee officials are investigating to see if teens are being mistreated.
Love in Action is not licensed by the Tennessee Departments of Health, Mental Health, Human Services, Child Services or Education, according to Rachel Lassiter of Gov. Phil Bredesen's communications office.
Refuge, Love in Action's program for adolescents, became the focus of public concern earlier this month after a Bartlett, Tenn., teen who uses the blogger name Zach, posted online entries that say his parents had responded to his coming out as gay by sending him to a religious institution to be converted to heterosexuality.
"Emotional abuse is difficult to prove in the state of Tennessee," said Pamela Dickey, director of the advocacy center for Childhelp USA in Knoxville. "You have to document that the child is undergoing depression or suicidal ideation, that he can't sleep, or can't eat."
Officials from Love in Action had appealed for "tolerance" of their program at a June 16 news conference.
"It is our spiritual conviction that sexual behavior outside of heterosexual marriage is considered wrong in the sight of God," said John Smid, the program's director, who describes himself as "ex-gay," according to a partial transcript of the news conference.
"This program is operated on the will of the guardian or parent. We will work with the minor children as long as they are not overtly distracting to their own program or the program of others," Smid added. "If it is shown that the client is overtly treatment resistant, we will work with the parent towards alternative options for their care and overall relational health."
Blogger E.J. Friedman said that he had been corresponding with Zach via e-mail since March and became alarmed when he saw that Zach had begun to write that his world was coming to an end and that his parents were isolating him.
"When I saw Zach had written in his blog, 'all I can think of is killing my mother and killing myself' I felt that clearly something needed to be said about the program," Friedman said.
No word from teen
Word of Zach's situation quickly spread around the blogosphere. By press time, more than 1,000 messages of support had been posted to Zach's blog and an online petition demanded that he be released from Love in Action. Comedian Margaret Cho contributed a message of support.
But Zach has not posted to his blog since the first week in June and sources contacted by the Blade would not confirm Zach's full name. His parents also could not be identified.
Morgan Fox, 25, who said he was a friend of Zach's, said he believed Zach was in a two-week Refuge program.
Meanwhile, a group called the Queer Action Coalition has begun daily demonstrations in front of Love in Action offices to raise awareness of the dangers of "ex-gay" therapy.
Look for complete coverage of this story in this Friday's print and online edition.
[url=http://www.robkamphausen.com/ubbthreads/...e=0&fpart=2 ]the G-man said[/url]
Wednesday and I have an open relationship. And we believe in sharing.
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It's no fun being a gay teen. You either have to do much lying or face rejection for being honest. What happens to the Zachs out there after they've been sent away to be fixed?
Fair play!
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To the teens I've spoken with who think they may be gay or bi, I usually suggest that they really think seriously about the consequences of them coming out. If I were to give a general piece of advice, I'd suggest to teens that they stay in the closet until they're 18. Not just because they should fear going off to some Gay Reformatory Concentration Camp, but because of their parents' possible rejection. Str8 or gay...it's easier being a sexual being when you're out on your own and/or legally an adult.
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Why do I get the disturbing impression that Reverend Fred Phelps has a connection--albeit tenuous--with this camp in some fashion?
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Becaue you are a former camp member and counselor!
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
To the teens I've spoken with who think they may be gay or bi, I usually suggest that they really think seriously about the consequences of them coming out. If I were to give a general piece of advice, I'd suggest to teens that they stay in the closet until they're 18. Not just because they should fear going off to some Gay Reformatory Concentration Camp, but because of their parents' possible rejection. Str8 or gay...it's easier being a sexual being when you're out on your own and/or legally an adult.
This weeks Savage Love is devoted to advise from older gay people to gay teenagers. For openers:
Quote:
Dear Readers: Just in time for Gay Pride, advice for 15-year-old fags and dykes from grown-up gays and lesbians ...
Three words: HIGH SCHOOL ENDS. No matter how much life sucks right now, it will get better. It’ll never be all rainbows and happiness, but someday you’ll know, your family will know, your friends will know. The people who really care about you will stay with you, and you won’t think twice about putting your name at the end of an e-mail like this.
Jamie Myslik
And may I take a moment to promote one of the funniest comedies I've ever seen?
 But I'm a Cheerleader (1999)
In this hilarious satire, Megan Bloomfield (Natasha Lyonne) lives a "normal" teen life as a cheerleader dating the captain of the football team. But her parents and friends suspect Megan is gay because of "clues" such as her distaste for kissing her boyfriend. Shipped off to True Directions -- a camp designed to shove her back in the closet -- Megan meets tomboy Graham Eaton (Clea DuVall), who helps her recognize her sexual orientation.
Starring: Natasha Lyonne, RuPaul ...
Director: Jamie Babbit
Genre: Comedy
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
This weeks Savage Love is devoted to advise from older gay people to gay teenagers.
I submitted a letter to Savage when I first read of the call for letters from older gays.
What I said above is pretty much what I told Savage. It does seem to be easier nowadays to come out than it was back in the day, but when you're a teenager coming out, you've got to be more careful.
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 Pink Triangle Update I attended the annual Gay Pride Parade yesterday and was surprised to see the triangle in prominent display. You know how someplaces will lay a gigantic US flag on hillside for 4th of July celebrations? Well, the parade goes down Market Street from the Embarcadero to Civic Center. Looking up Market on a hill known as Twin Peaks at the end of the route was a gigantic Pink Triangle! Everyone at the Parade couldn't miss it, as well as half the city. Just thought Enquiring minds would want to know. 
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
And may I take a moment to promote one of the funniest comedies I've ever seen?
But I'm a Cheerleader (1999)
I really liked this movie. If I remember correctly at one point the cheerleader character asks her folks if they would still love her if the camp didn't fix her & they didn't say anything. Considering the subject material, this was a really funny movie.
Also did the gay pride thing this weekend & finished off the festivities at the Saloon block party. They had Thelma Houston & Amber performing! Anyway it's not a huge pink triangle but there is one on the front of the bar. I didn't actually see anyone wearing a pink triangle but saw a few people walking around with rainbow colored triangle t's.
Fair play!
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We showed that movie to the kids at the youth group I used to work for. They loved it. My favorite scene was when the bull dyke broke down and asked why everyone thought she was a lesbian....when all she wanted was a 'big fat weiner'. Funny stuff.
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Pride Weekend also just concluded in Columbus.
I'm not big into these kinds of events. I do not need to display my pride to, in fact, be proud. I find in many ways these kinds of events simply perpetuate stereotypes of gay people among the str8 community...the butch dykes, the queens, the twinks, the leather men, rough trade, that kind of thing. Yesterday afternoon, they held the drag softball game. I'm sorry, but I find that in many ways pathetic. I may have even lost a gay friend over it, because I told him I found it pathetic. He got mad, huffed off and walked away.
Furthermore, I do not define myself that much by my sexuality that I have to take part in such a public event.
I was at my research job yesterday, which is near the very gay friendly Short North area of Columbus. I stopped by the Open Book bookstore in this neighborhood and I saw a shot glass with a pink triangle on it. That marks the first display of the triangle that I have seen. Columbus must be more a rainbow flag kinda place than a triangle place.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Furthermore, I do not define myself that much by my sexuality that I have to take part in such a public event.
Do you go out of your way to avoid it? That would be sad. Here in Montreal it's a happening, just like every other festival in the city (they are legion. Starting in June there are only two days that are not engulfed in a festival until mid September...and all are huge events). Families and tourists attend it like any other festival. Berri square is engufed with over a million revelers (last year there was this old, heterosexual, chinese couple dancing in the foam....it was cute).
It's definately a part of my summer, just like the Jazz festival, the new Cirque production, and Just for Laughs.
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Oh! And last year they invited Samantha Fox to the park stage. It was a classic moment in 'where are they now' fromagerie! Bitch has gotten fat...and tone deaf.
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Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Furthermore, I do not define myself that much by my sexuality that I have to take part in such a public event.
Do you go out of your way to avoid it? That would be sad.
To you it may be sad. To me, and to others I know, it's not sad that we avoid it. And yes, we avoid it. I can find many places to witness gay caricatures and still stay out of the heat and the traffic.
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Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Furthermore, I do not define myself that much by my sexuality that I have to take part in such a public event.
Do you go out of your way to avoid it? That would be sad. Here in Montreal it's a happening, just like every other festival in the city (they are legion. Starting in June there are only two days that are not engulfed in a festival until mid September...and all are huge events). Families and tourists attend it like any other festival. Berri square is engufed with over a million revelers (last year there was this old, heterosexual, chinese couple dancing in the foam....it was cute).
It's definately a part of my summer, just like the Jazz festival, the new Cirque production, and Just for Laughs.
That's the way it is here, too. It's this giant party! If you're gay and can't get laid in SF during June, you might as well hang up your spurs, cowboys. As for those stereo types, I see those people every day of the year. We have a saying 'Everyday is Halloween in San Francisco'.
You know, Jim, for a guy that claims to be a rocker, you don't like to party much.
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magicjay38 said:
If you're gay and can't get laid in SF during June, you might as well hang up your spurs, cowboys.
Great. More stereotyping. 
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You know, Jim, for a guy that claims to be a rocker, you don't like to party much.
I don't see "rocking" and "partying" as synonymous. Sorry. Your mileage may vary.
Last edited by Jim Jackson; 2005-06-27 3:45 PM.
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It sounds like you're uncomfortable to the culture to which you belong. I seem to recall that it was all about sex and drugs and rock & roll. That was part of The Who's attraction. I guess yuppie queers are uncomfortable with the image of wild abandon. Personally, I'll take the Wild Abandon!  
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C B C . C A N e w s - F u l l S t o r y : ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tories can't win same-sex battle: MacKay Last Updated Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:15:26 EDT CBC News Opposition leaders say there's no point trying to block this week's likely passage of same-sex marriage legislation if the Liberals, NDP and Bloc Québécois have thrown their support behind it. * INDEPTH: Same-sex Rights Conservative deputy leader Peter MacKay. Members of Parliament begin final debate on Bill C-38 on Monday, the start of what is expected to be the final week before the House of Commons breaks for the summer. The bill establishing the Civil Marriage Act could pass before the weekend. Conservative deputy leader Peter MacKay says he believes the Liberals will try to invoke closure on the bill's debate, with the co-operation of the NDP and Bloc. * FROM JUNE 26, 2005: Same-sex bill at 'last stage,' Cotler says "I think the bill is going to pass," MacKay told CBC Newsworld in an interview Monday. "I suspect that the Liberals may invoke closure, which they've done as recently as last week," he said. "The Liberals have banded together with the Bloc and NDP in the past to shut down Parliament and that strategy may unfold again." Last Thursday, the Liberals used an obscure parliamentary tactic to end debate on the budget amendment bill by gaining support from the Bloc and NDP, catching the Conservatives without a full slate of MPs. * FROM JUNE 26, 2005: Toronto's Pride parade draws huge crowd With most Tory MPs opposed to same-sex legislation, MacKay says the party will try to move some amendments to the legislation. Specifically, the Conservatives want to make clearer the rights of churches, public officials and other religious institutions to refuse to perform same-sex unions without punishment. "It's always about balance, it's always about keeping people's rights fair," said MacKay. "That's what this issue should be about – equality under the law. And I think we've strayed a little too far [from] that." The issue has sparked a strong reaction across the country. Opponents of same-sex unions held prayer vigils across the country on Sunday, the same day tens of thousands of people gathered in Toronto for the city's annual Pride parade. NDP Leader Jack Layton rode a bicycle in the parade to show solidarity with the gay community, while Conservative Leader Stephen Harper spoke out against the legislation at a Muslim conference in Toronto. The bill would legalize same-sex marriage across the country. A number of court decisions in the past few years have allowed such marriages to be performed in eight provinces and one territory. The new bill means same-sex marriages can also take place in Alberta, Prince Edward Island, the Northwest Territories and Nunavut. (Same-sex unions are not performed in Nunavut, but they are recognized.) The NDP and Bloc support the bill. The Liberals are allowing backbench MPs to vote with their conscience, so as many as 34 Liberals may vote against it. All but four members of the Conservative caucus are opposed to the bill. Copyright ©2005 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation - All Rights Reserved
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
It sounds like you're uncomfortable to the culture to which you belong. I seem to recall that it was all about sex and drugs and rock & roll. That was part of The Who's attraction. I guess yuppie queers are uncomfortable with the image of wild abandon.
Personally, I'll take the Wild Abandon!
I live across the street from that Carl's Jr.
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I bet you really enjoyed the parade.
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Jim Jackson said:
To the teens I've spoken with who think they may be gay or bi, I usually suggest that they really think seriously about the consequences of them coming out. If I were to give a general piece of advice, I'd suggest to teens that they stay in the closet until they're 18. Not just because they should fear going off to some Gay Reformatory Concentration Camp, but because of their parents' possible rejection. Str8 or gay...it's easier being a sexual being when you're out on your own and/or legally an adult.
Good advice.
Do you counsel gay teens on a regular basis or was that just a one time deal with the letter to the magazine?
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Jim Jackson said:
Pride Weekend also just concluded in Columbus.
I'm not big into these kinds of events. I do not need to display my pride to, in fact, be proud. I find in many ways these kinds of events simply perpetuate stereotypes of gay people among the str8 community...the butch dykes, the queens, the twinks, the leather men, rough trade, that kind of thing.
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Well for me and the boyfriend it's just a fun event weekend. The Twin City's Pride is very much family oriented and open to the public. Lots of straight people enjoy the parade plus the park full of entertainment & info booths. I suppose somebody could just see the stereotypes but they would have to pick them out of a huge crowd of diversity. To be honest Jim, I've known people that share your attitude & over the years they've mostly mellowed out & stopped worrying about being defined as a stereotype. I think it's the realization that the folks that hate or fear gay people don't really care if you raised nice kids & that your a profesional who goes to work with a boring suit & tie everyday. You will always be just as bad & repulsive as "the queens, the twinks, the leather men, rough trade..." because you like cock just as much as the lisping hair dresser does. We are all in the same boat, like it or not.
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And as a straight man with gay friends who have more or less the same attitude as Jim does, I can say that Pride parades and festivals are nothing more than a good time for all of us. The drag queens and leather guys are just more scenery in a sea of diversity. what my friends usually revel in though is the fact that you have so many "cool people" all gathered together. It's a judgement free zone. You can be a sterotype or not.
What I like about it is that it's an inclusive event. Sure they're gay festivals but not everyone there has to be gay to enjoy themselves. I usually go to hang out with my buddies but also go for the music. usually i see bands as diverse as Camper Van Beethoven, X, and the Dandy Warhols. What's cool too is seeing all the diversity, both sexual, musical, culinary, and racial and most importantly seeing FAMILIES. Kids being raised by their families to not see gay people and homosexuality as somehow being bad and alien. If anything that makes these festivals/events worth the while.
And if floats of drag queens end up on the news or on some hate political ads or websites, ...... man they're going to hate whether the gay person is wearing a dress or just holding hands with their partner anyways. Why worry about them?
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magicjay38 said:
I seem to recall that it was all about sex and drugs and rock & roll. That was part of The Who's attraction. I guess yuppie queers are uncomfortable with the image of wild abandon.
That may have been YOUR attraction to the Who. It was not completely mine. My attraction to the Who has always been because they were a "thinking man's" rock band. Pete Townshend is the poster child for the Nerd Who Rocks. That always rang true with me.
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It sounds like you're uncomfortable to the culture to which you belong.
I'm not comfortable with that aspect of the gay culture (though, frankly, I feel it's a small part) because of the stereotypes it maintains. Being gay isn't about you and your buddies painting yourself like a rainbow flag, wearing speedos to show off your cocks, and parading down High St. in Columbus. It isn't about a drag softball game. I don't feel pride watching these things, I feel pity, that these men and women engage in this behavior and think it displays to the world how proud they are of being gay.
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PaulWellr said:
Good advice.
Thanks.
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Do you counsel gay teens on a regular basis or was that just a one time deal with the letter to the magazine?
No, I don't counsel teens reguarly. I submitted the letter, and I have chatted with gay young men online.
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Matter-eater Man said:
To be honest Jim, I've known people that share your attitude & over the years they've mostly mellowed out & stopped worrying about being defined as a stereotype.
Guess I'm not there yet.
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I think it's the realization that the folks that hate or fear gay people don't really care if you raised nice kids & that your a profesional who goes to work with a boring suit & tie everyday. You will always be just as bad & repulsive as "the queens, the twinks, the leather men, rough trade..." because you like cock just as much as the lisping hair dresser does. We are all in the same boat, like it or not.
I don't like it. I'd like to aspire to something other than that, better than that. We're winning a lot of battles, and I do see progress. I see friends of my high school age daughter coming out in an environment of greater acceptance (sadly, not total) than would have been present in my day. But I'm not ready to be resigned to anything.
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Jim Jackson said:
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I think it's the realization that the folks that hate or fear gay people don't really care if you raised nice kids & that your a profesional who goes to work with a boring suit & tie everyday. You will always be just as bad & repulsive as "the queens, the twinks, the leather men, rough trade..." because you like cock just as much as the lisping hair dresser does. We are all in the same boat, like it or not.
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I don't like it. I'd like to aspire to something other than that, better than that. We're winning a lot of battles, and I do see progress. I see friends of my high school age daughter coming out in an environment of greater acceptance (sadly, not total) than would have been present in my day. But I'm not ready to be resigned to anything.
My teenage daughter lives in the 'burbs with her mother. She has group of friends that includes two straight guys and a lesbian girl. After spending time with them once she told me 'I love hanging out with X,Y and Z. Everybody there wants me!'.
BTW, what's the problem with lisping hairdressers? I've known a few and not only did I get great doos, I got a lot of entertainment, too! Must be balding guy envy or something.
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