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It would make little sense to attack any big country.
The days of power through conquering the world are over, its now all about money. China will keep up their mass production of crap and sell it and be happy.
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
Chant said:
Chineese people aren't short, you only think that because you've only seen pictures of them in ricefields. When they get out of the rice fields they're actually quite tall.
Anyhoo, I seriously doubt that China would begin with an attack on any nation in Nato
No, they are short. But strong. I've seen Chinese grandmothers muscle aside men 3 times their size to get a seat on the N Judah line! I'm sure r3x29yz4a has seen the same - maybe even been one of their hapless victims. I know it's happened to me!
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Here's a story (about 10 minutes in broadcast length) from last night's PBS News Hour broadcast :
Some talking points from the broadcast :
ZAINAB BANGURA [ anti-corruption activist, in Sierra Leone, where China is changing the nation with their foreign investment]: The way the Chinese work is still very secretive, it's directly with government. You don't even know what they're doing. And they're into everything. We're saying, "We want to know the processes you're putting in place," that's all. We just want to be...because at the end of the day, this is our country.
LINDSEY HILSUM [reporter, Independent Television News ] : Thirty years ago, China was building prestige projects in Africa, like the railway from Zambia to Tanzania, trying to spread communism across the continent. It was the Cold War. The Chinese were wooing African leaders away from the Soviet Union and the West.
Now they need Africa to fuel their own growth, as a proving ground for their new capitalist model of development. In the last five years, China's activity in Africa has swept the continent.
Nearly 700 Chinese companies operate in 49 countries. Trade has gone up threefold, to $30 billion a year, making China Africa's third-largest trading partner ahead of Britain. Oil is the major interest.
A quarter of Angola's oil goes to China, and the stake's growing in equatorial Guinea, Nigeria and Gabon. But it's Sudan that's got the closest links. Sixty percent of its oil exports are now bound for the People's Republic.
Pile-driving at the Higleig oilfield, on the border between north and south Sudan. The Chinese national petroleum corporation's providing capital, technology and expertise. China's industrial growth is now so fast, its oil consumption is second only to the U.S.A., and it's getting up to 12 percent of its needs from Sudan.
The Sudanese president cuts the ribbon at the opening ceremony for the first oil refinery China's built outside its own borders. No wonder he's happy about the solid crude the land produces. It brings not only wealth, but also the chance to resist western pressure. More Sino-Sudanese ceremony, a new extension to the multimillion-dollar Khartoum refinery.
Western oil companies are watching in dismay as China moves onto their turf. America's had financial sanctions against Sudan for more than a decade because of the government's links to militant Islamist groups.
A Canadian company withdrew its oil investment because of pressure from shareholders over human rights. But there are no such obstacles in the path of the Chinese, to the delight of the Sudanese government.
LINDSEY HILSUM: In Darfur, government-sponsored militias have driven up to two million people from their homes. Women have been raped; men murdered. But China certainly wasn't going to support oil sanctions or harsh U.N. Security Council resolutions. The resolutions were watered down, so China abstained and didn't veto
LINDSEY HILSUM: Chinese weapons: During the North/South war, which ended only this year, government defectors demonstrated the small arms they'd used. They were assembled in three Chinese-built factories just outside Khartoum.
The European Union and the U.S., meanwhile, have an arms embargo on Sudan. China's influence is growing, and not just in Sudan, as African governments realize just how useful a little competition can be.
In other words, China's spread of war, weapons and genocide, making corrupt governments more able to stay in power, murder their citizens and de-stabilize the region.
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I came across this article:
Quote:
China on the Brink
Luke Hodgens / Powerhouse Profits -- Never play the money game with communist rules. China is going to find this out the hard way. The vastly growing Chinese economy will soon come to a screeching halt and their new middle class will suffer the most. I've been writing for months about the coming collapse of the Chinese bubble with complete disregard for the effects to follow.
The Chinese government has tried to internally control every aspect of international trade, currency valuation, money flow and interest rates while shopping at the capitalist marketplace. China pegged the yuan (their currency) years ago in hopes of creating a huge export economy. It worked. By not allowing the free market to value the yuan, China has managed to rack up huge trade surpluses, vast amounts of investment capital, and a new middle class of citizen that never before existed.
This all sounds fine and dandy, but when a nation doesn't allow investments and currency to freely float disaster strikes. The communist control over a pseudo-capitalist system is now ready to implode. China has created a monster. The tidal wave of incoming money has set the stage for massive inflation which China cannot control.
Solutions to this coming disaster range from increasing the reserve requirements of banks to increasing interest rates and the inevitable float of the yuan. Unfortunately for the Chinese, nothing can be done to avert the coming disaster. One or all of these options will have to be implemented but none will stop the burst.
China has so deeply entangled her economy in a communist mess that a crash cannot be prevented. Raising interest rates would only attract more investments into the country. With bonds paying higher coupons, foreigners would jump on Chinese debt further increasing money supply and the risk of gigantic inflation.
A rate hike would also cripple the new Chinese middle class home owner and their lenders. China does not have an open mortgage market like we have here, there's no 30 year fixed rate loan. Upping rates could cause the new middle class to become the old lower class as affordability of their homes goes out the window. With much fewer mortgages being paid back, lenders could tumble...not a nice scene.
Increasing reserve requirements will only help banks cover their tails when the proverbial ''poop'' hits the fan, much like fixing a big leak in a ship by plugging it with bubble gum. The yuan float is the only way out of this mess, but it will not and can not stop a crash.
China is a huge importer of raw materials. Although China has massive resources of her own, there's simply not enough readily available to fill her needs. Floating the yuan would give China more purchasing power for the commodities she desperately needs. This would further strain the world oil supply and surely increase price per barrel. If she can afford more she'll buy more. This is bullish news for the world commodities market but not good for middle class China. Being forced to pay mo re for these goods will apply brakes to the economy (good) but also apply severe brakes to the consumer which could eventually lead to smaller companies going under and rising unemployment. Welcome to the real world China! The party is over.
Even if China did realize that they were going to crash and burn with their current policies, I don't think it'd be too outlandish to assume they wouldn't take a hint and change organizational paradigms. In which case, if they knew their economy was going belly-up soon, where would their motivations for not going to war stand?
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China-Japan tension is a problemThe current state of ties between China and Japan is worrying. In terms of stakes on the Chinese side, Japan has $47.9 billion invested in China. Trade volume between Japan and China is expected to reach $200 billion in 2005. There are 16,000 Japanese companies in China. On the Japanese side, China has surpassed the United States as Japan's top trading partner. Politically, Japan is having simultaneous bad relations with its four closest neighbors all at the same time. South Korea sent four fighter jets to intercept a Japanese aircraft and some of its protesters cut their fingers as a sign of protest against past Japanese imperialism. Russian President Vladimir Putin's relationship with Japan seems to be in doubt after a very public display by the Japanese prime minister of visiting the disputed islands with Russia. Japan also has a nuclear North Korea on its doorstep and Beijing is the only link to North Korea and both countries have stakes in nuclear disarmament.
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Oh yeah! I forgot how much Kong hates Japan.
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I've mentioned it at least 2 times before......you don't have me on ignore do you? Oh that's right you can't ignore me!
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Do you guys really think China will unilaterally invade the North American continent with an expeditionary force? Wouldn't they need to have a really BIG Navy? At present they don't even have an aircraft carrier! The PLAN is building up but they're ambition extends no further than a green water naval force capable of projecting Chinese power as far as Guam by the mid 21st century. PLAN currently is capable of no more than active offshore defense. The challenge they present to the US is largely economic. In that arena they are a formidable competitor. The 'invasion' is happening today: Chinese businesmen arriving in 747 armed with Yuans. Not PLA soldiers in battle fatigues.
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It's not an invasion of America I'm worried about. It's an enveloping of Taiwan, Japan, and Korea. That's a definite invitation to retaliation on the part of the USA.
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Quote:
magicjay said:
Do you guys really think China will unilaterally invade the North American continent with an expeditionary force? Wouldn't they need to have a really BIG Navy? At present they don't even have an aircraft carrier! The PLAN is building up but they're ambition extends no further than a green water naval force capable of projecting Chinese power as far as Guam by the mid 21st century. PLAN currently is capable of no more than active offshore defense. The challenge they present to the US is largely economic. In that arena they are a formidable competitor. The 'invasion' is happening today: Chinese businesmen arriving in 747 armed with Yuans. Not PLA soldiers in battle fatigues.
Not North America, but possibly Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, or oil-rich Indonesia.
In normal circumstances, I don't think the Chinese would make war with the United States, so long as China continues growing economically, remains politically stable internally, and doesn't have any emerging or growing shortage of resources.
But as Pariah linked above, the danger is that China --with a rapidly expanding but volatile economy, even though their economy is expanding at about 10% a year, there is huge disparity in incomes within China, and huge migration from impoverished farms to major cities in search of better wages. So much urban population growth and pressure to accomodate that growing urban population with food, housing and jobs, that China's economy, rapid as its expansion is, can barely contain it.
I read an article excerpted from a book on China, where the author projected an economic collapse in China within five years. (I read it in print, wish I could find the article now to link).
The concern is that China, in the face of massive civil unrest, would attempt to unify the nation and eliminate internal rebellion by pulling a "Wag The Dog" with Taiwan invasion, to unify the divisions in their country. And possibly go to war with other nations to get oil and other resources they desperately need ion ever greater quantity.
It should also be pointed out that the very existence of Taiwan, a part of China under non-Chinese rule, that is the last remnant of the Chiang Kai-Shek government that the Communists overthrew in 1949, exists in defiance of a unified China, and of a Communist China.
It is a symbol of defiance that the Chinese leadership is burning to destroy.
Similar needs drove Imperial Japan to pursue an expansionist policy, as detailed in The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang.
Imperial Japan --who actually allied with Britain and France during World War I-- found itself screwed in the two decades after 1918. Japan was shut out of trade, and its impoverished citizens were even denied the ability to immigrate in pursuit of work.
China, while it would prefer the easy path of economic expansion, may at some point feel it is easier to seize the resources it needs from other neighboring nations. And it is rapidly expanding its military resources to meet that need.
( And I assume PLAN = People's Liberation Army Navy.
A rather ominous acronym. )
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It might only seem like a minor detail to many, but I could suggest one way to give allied nations a good deal more punch to deter a potential Chinese invasion while bringing in a little cash and boosting relations with those allies at the same time. Even though it might initially cost a bit more, I'd ramp up the current production of F-22s and F/A-18 E/Fs and the planned JSF production by 144 (2 wings) or 216 (3 wings) each. Then I'd sell off some of the USAF's currently-flying F-15s (mostly C models, maybe a few E's) and F-16s, and a bunch of older Navy F-14s and first-generation F-18s to Taiwan and South Korea. (Japan and Israel have licensing to build their own versions of the F-15 and F-16 already.) That'd leave all Air National Guard aircraft in place (which would still be available in the event of full-scale war), it'd give the USAF, Navy, and Marines that many more advanced aircraft for which there isn't any real counter anywhere, and most importantly, it would bolster allied air forces tremendously. The Chinese air force isn't anything to sneeze at, with the best Russian jets currently available and a number of well-trained pilots, but a combination of more American hardware and more aid with tactics and training would definitely give Taiwan and South Korea a hell of a deterrent force. To keep relations and force readiness up, there could be more multinational exercises that would help pilots from all those countries stay sharp. Superior air power is a good way to stall just about any enemy invasion.
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Reunification of Taiwan with the mainland is inevitable. It's a question of when not if. It's highly unlikely that the Nationalists will assert their will over the Peoples Republic. If it comes to force, do you really want to go to war to preserve Taiwan's independence?
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How many Americans would eagerly go to war to defend France ?
Not many.
But we're contractually obligated to defend them through the NATO mutual defense pact.
Likewise we are contractually obligated to defend Taiwan.
I doubt there are many Americans who wanted the U.S. to intervene in Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, Libya, or South Korea.
But I'm glad we did the right thing in these places. The U.S. pressing to do the right thing kept many of these brushfires from burning down the forest.
Where without U.S. leadership, the rest of the world would have let it burn.
And as I said, it is in China's long-term interest to wait it out for a gradual/peaceful China-Taiwan political re-unification, and not attempt it militarily.
But again:
1) An independent Taiwan's very existence (the enduring legacy of Chiang Kai Shek) flies in the face of mainland/communist China. The old guard is burning for the opportunity to eliminate that.
2) a volatile political/economic situation in China could hasten a military solution, to rally popular support by stroking nationalist strings, which is what a Taiwan invasion would provide.
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Quote:
magicjay said:
If it comes to force, do you really want to go to war to preserve Taiwan's independence?
Even if we weren't obligated to, as Dave mentioned, I'd definitely fight to preserve its independence. Not only because I think it would be the right thing to do, but because they share Western sentiments. That's a valuable thing to have in the orient.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
magicjay said:
If it comes to force, do you really want to go to war to preserve Taiwan's independence?
Even if we weren't obligated to, as Dave mentioned, I'd defnitely fight tp preserve its independence. Not only because I think it would be the right thing to do, but because they share Western sentiments.
Really? They don't even have democracy...
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They're anti-China, a country that's quintessentially anti-American. That's Western enough.
Quote:
But I'm glad we did the right thing in these places. The U.S. pressing to do the right thing kept many of these brushfires from burning down the forest.
Where without U.S. leadership, the rest of the world would have let it burn.
You gotta admit though, it was partially our (Truman's) fault that communism overwhelmed China.
Last edited by Pariah; 2005-07-08 6:07 AM.
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Quote:
Eurostar said:
Really? They don't even have democracy...
Wait a tic.......Yes they do. 
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Eurostar said:
Really? They don't even have democracy...
Wait a tic.......Yes they do.
They also claim soveriegnty over the mainland. I wish those in favour of fighting and dieing for these 'noble causes' would just go do so!
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Quote:
magicjay said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Eurostar said:
Really? They don't even have democracy...
Wait a tic.......Yes they do.
They also claim soveriegnty over the mainland. I wish those in favour of fighting and dieing for these 'noble causes' would just go do so!
It's a good thing that only some of them died in previous wars, and not all of them.
Otherwise, we'd be having this conversation in German or Russian. And probably not be able to have this conversation at all, without secret police busting into our homes in the middle of the night, and carrying us off to torture rooms for interrogation and "resettlement".
They fought and died so useless sacks of liberal crap like you could go on to abuse the freedom they fought so hard for.
- from Do Racists have lower IQ's...
Liberals who bemoan discrimination, intolerance, restraint of Constitutional freedoms, and promotion of hatred toward various abberant minorities, have absolutely no problem with discriminating against, being intolerant of, restricting Constitutional freedoms of, and directing hate-filled scapegoat rhetoric against conservatives.
EXACTLY what they accuse Republicans/conservatives of doing, is EXACTLY what liberals/Democrats do themselves, to those who oppose their beliefs.
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
Quote:
magicjay said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Eurostar said:
Really? They don't even have democracy...
Wait a tic.......Yes they do.
They also claim soveriegnty over the mainland. I wish those in favour of fighting and dieing for these 'noble causes' would just go do so!
It's a good thing that only some of them died in previous wars, and not all of them.
Otherwise, we'd be having this conversation in German or Russian. And probably not be able to have this conversation at all, without secret police busting into our homes in the middle of the night, and carrying us off to torture rooms for interrogation and "resettlement".
They fought and died so useless sacks of liberal crap like you could go on to abuse the freedom they fought so hard for.
They fought so useless sacks of liberal crap like you could abuse the freedom they fought and died for.
This sounds much more musical to my ear. What do you think?
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Either way, you're a useless piece of crap who just wished his political opposition would die.
I'd be content to respectfully disagree, if assholes on the Left wouldn't take it to this level.
You guys shit on the notions of patriotism and military defense, except for brief lapses where you feel it makes the right look bad, by painting yourselves as the "true patriots" who "fight American injustice" to "save our troops", while temporarily pretending to care about and appreciate their service. But only long enough paint conservatives in a distorted negative light.
But the liberals never manage to fool the nation's majority for long, because the public at some point sees that liberal ideology, which sounds warm and fluffy on paper, doesn't gel with how the real world works.
John Kerry could sound tough on terrorism for a few weeks, but ultimately the public saw the unreality of fighting terrorism by criminal prosecution, as opposed to as the true war that it really is.
Fighting a "sensitive war" on terror doesn't work, and the public sees that.
It also didn't help that Kerry came back from Vietnam and verbally trashed his fellow vets about as bady as was humanly possible, calling them "animals" and "war criminals", and alleging mass rape and other horribly demoralizing allegations about his fellow soldiers.
Crimes Kerry alleged to have seen firsthand, and then later admitted he never saw.
Only in a party dominated by individuals with a contempt for the military could such a pontificating jackass be nominated as their presidential candidate.
- from Do Racists have lower IQ's...
Liberals who bemoan discrimination, intolerance, restraint of Constitutional freedoms, and promotion of hatred toward various abberant minorities, have absolutely no problem with discriminating against, being intolerant of, restricting Constitutional freedoms of, and directing hate-filled scapegoat rhetoric against conservatives.
EXACTLY what they accuse Republicans/conservatives of doing, is EXACTLY what liberals/Democrats do themselves, to those who oppose their beliefs.
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Quote:
You guys shit on the notions of patriotism and military defense, except for brief lapses where you feel it makes the right look bad, by painting yourselves as the "true patriots" who "fight American injustice" to "save our troops", while temporarily pretending to care about and appreciate their service. But only long enough paint conservatives in a distorted negative light.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Wow. That's just a brilliant piece of propaganda. It's been a while since I've seen so much bull in one single post. Please, continue, Wonder Boy.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
PenWing said:
Wow. That's just a brilliant piece of propaganda. It's been a while since I've seen so much bull in one single post. Please, continue, Wonder Boy.
It amy not describe everyone who's left leaning, but it definately describes a segment of the left quite well.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
PenWing said:
Wow. That's just a brilliant piece of propaganda. It's been a while since I've seen so much bull in one single post. Please, continue, Wonder Boy.
You did see what I was responding to, right Penwing ?
I don't see a need to continue, I pretty much got it out of my system.
Glad you enjoyed it. 
And while I recognize that not all Democrats are traitorous liberal idealogues, I don't see anything untrue in my above remarks.
way too many Democrats (a majority within the party) are overly sympathetic to those who would destroy us, and overly eager to condemn the United States, undermining our resolve, while glossing over the greater evil of those hell-bent on destroying us.
It hurts 'cuz it's true !
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Quote:
Pariah said:
They're anti-China, a country that's quintessentially anti-American. That's Western enough.
Does the name Saddam Hussein and even Osama Bin Laden ring a bell? They too were good western allies, being the enemies of anti-American countries (Iran and URSS respectively).
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Quote:
Eurostar said:
Does the name Saddam Hussein and even Osama Bin Laden ring a bell? They too were good western allies, being the enemies of anti-American countries (Iran and URSS respectively).
They were not allies. They were enemies of the enemy, who, by the way, were just as anti-American as the center of hostility towards the US. Taiwan is under a completely different category in that it corresponds with America's dislike of Chinese mainland policies and that our two nations are in friendly cooperation with eachother.
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Quote:
Eurostar said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
They're anti-China, a country that's quintessentially anti-American. That's Western enough.
Does the name Saddam Hussein and even Osama Bin Laden ring a bell?
They too were good western allies, being the enemies of anti-American countries (Iran and URSS respectively).
I respectfully disagree, Eurostar.
It can be spun that any nation on earth is an "ally" of the United States, or of any other nation one wants to condemn.
The United States supplied re-armament to Hitler's Germany. Does that make the United States an "ally" of Nazi Germany ?
Hitler and Stalin signed a non-aggression pact in 1939.
Does that make Russia an "ally" of Nazi Germany ?
Similarly, the United States was condemned for not intervening on the side of the Bosnians in the early 1990's, because the U.S. had the power to intervene, and "because there was nothing in it for the U.S." the U.S. did not intervene for many years ( until the the Bosnian conflict threatened to widen into Greece, Turkey, and other islamic and European nations ).
Those bastards !
And conversely, the U.S. was scorned for taking action and rallying for police action in Bosnia, as militaristic and seeking easy answers with a military solution, sticking their noses in others' business.
Those bastards !
So.. damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
If we ban trade with China ( or Iraq, or Cuba, or whoever) then we contribute to the suffering of their people, and allow their tyranny to continue.
If we continue trade with China ( or Iraq, or Cuba, or whoever) then we contribute to the suffering of their people, and allow their tyranny to continue.
It can always be spun to condemn the United States.
I believe the U.S. has done more good and less evil than any nation in the world.
Warts and all.
The U.S. gives billions in foreign aid, and has done bailouts in countries that often will never be repaid (Mexico, Indonesia...) , has overthrown corrupt governments in impoverished nations to bring democracy and an end to violence to people that will never be able to offer anything in return to the U.S. ( Liberia, Haiti, Rwanda, Kosovo, Bosnia, Somalia...) , and the U.S. has rushed humanitarian assistance and medical care to even our worst enemies in the wake of natural disaster (Iran, North Korea...)
And the U.S., in the wake of a devastating world war, in great generosity to two nations who would surely not have done the same if the U.S. had lost, rebuilt those two war-torn axis powers into its two largest economic rivals, second in the world only to the United States economically (Germany and Japan).
I think it's fair to challenge specific actions of the United States. No nation is above scrutiny.
But I expect equal fairness in evaluating WHY the U.S. traded and was parters with certain nations, and more fairly weighing whether that was evil and greed on the part of the U.S., or whether it was oversight and error while the U.S. was juggling several global crises at once.
And whether the U.S. truly had any better alternative options at the given focal point in history cited.
Or whether , in truth, it was truly one of several bad options that the U.S. had.
I also expect fairness from the global media when labelling the U.S. as greedy, imperialist and evil based on relatively few transgressions, while ignoring the greater good and sacrifice that the U.S. has made for global stability, human relief, and police-action intervention on the part of impoverished peoples who had nothing to offer in return for U.S. intervention.
View of any clear U.S. transgressions should more fairly be evaluated in contrast to this consistent greater good.
The cases you cite of the U.S. co-operating with Saddam's Iraq and Osama Bin Laden briefly in the 1980's are ones that arose from several bad options :
- Expanding fundamentalsm from a radicalized (post-1979 ) Iran.
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- A war already existing between Iraq and Iran (1980-1988), where the U.S. provided aid that basically supported a war of attrition between Iraq and Iran, that served to prevent both from expanding their tyranny and fanaticism elsewhere in the Islamic world.
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- And the Soviet Union/Russia ( over the decades from 1948-present ) offering tanks, guns, fighter jets and other aid to Iraq, Iran and other oil-producing nations, that would have poised Russia to sieze the world's oil supply, if the U.S. had not taken (arguably questionable, but perhaps simply necessary) action, and offers of planes, tanks and foreign aid to middle east regimes, to balance Soviet Russian expansions into the Arab region.
American actions that can be criticized now in the retrospective of history, utilizing facts that in many cases were not available in the time these U.S. decisions were made.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
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You guys shit on the notions of patriotism and military defense, except for brief lapses where you feel it makes the right look bad, by painting yourselves as the "true patriots" who "fight American injustice" to "save our troops", while temporarily pretending to care about and appreciate their service. But only long enough paint conservatives in a distorted negative light.
What you call patriotism and milatary defense I call nationalism and imperialism. Do I shit on those notions? Yes. Do I appreciate their service and sacrifice? No. I've said so many times in other threads. They volunteered, they took a risk. What motivated them to do so I really don't know or care. It's their problem. What I do know is that this conflict, like previous wars, is really about money and resources. If you want to die for them, whatever floats yer boat, man. Just don't expect me to do it.
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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magicjay said:
What you call patriotism and milatary defense I call nationalism and imperialism. Do I shit on those notions? Yes. Do I appreciate their service and sacrifice? No. I've said so many times in other threads. They volunteered, they took a risk. What motivated them to do so I really don't know or care. It's their problem. What I do know is that this conflict, like previous wars, is really about money and resources. If you want to die for them, whatever floats yer boat, man. Just don't expect me to do it.
This makes me laugh every time I hear it. This kind of sweeping insensitivity and ignorance implies that you wouldn't even show [respects to/help] soldiers who are defending the country you live in from engagements as severe as infantry invasion. From your assertions, every war they'd fight in would be "theirs".
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Pariah said:
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magicjay said:
What you call patriotism and milatary defense I call nationalism and imperialism. Do I shit on those notions? Yes. Do I appreciate their service and sacrifice? No. I've said so many times in other threads. They volunteered, they took a risk. What motivated them to do so I really don't know or care. It's their problem. What I do know is that this conflict, like previous wars, is really about money and resources. If you want to die for them, whatever floats yer boat, man. Just don't expect me to do it.
This makes me laugh every time I hear it. This kind of sweeping insensitivity and ignorance implies that you wouldn't even show [respects to/help] soldiers who are defending the country you live in from engagements as severe as infantry invasion. From your assertions, every war they'd fight in would be "theirs".
When in the last 100 years has there been a credibale threat of an infantry invasion of North America? The last time was in 1812 when our good friends the Brits sacked our capital and burned it to the ground. Lucky for us Napolean distracted them or we'd be speaking with a different accent.
I did support the police actions in the Balkans by the way.
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Pariah said:
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magicjay said:
What you call patriotism and milatary defense I call nationalism and imperialism. Do I shit on those notions? Yes. Do I appreciate their service and sacrifice? No. I've said so many times in other threads. They volunteered, they took a risk. What motivated them to do so I really don't know or care. It's their problem. What I do know is that this conflict, like previous wars, is really about money and resources. If you want to die for them, whatever floats yer boat, man. Just don't expect me to do it.
This makes me laugh every time I hear it. This kind of sweeping insensitivity and ignorance implies that you wouldn't even show [respects to/help] soldiers who are defending the country you live in from engagements as severe as infantry invasion. From your assertions, every war they'd fight in would be "theirs".
I am going to have to agree with Pariah here.
Dammit Jay for what you made me do! 
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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Quote:
magicjay said:
When in the last 100 years has there been a credibale threat of an infantry invasion of North America? The last time was in 1812 when our good friends the Brits sacked our capital and burned it to the ground. Lucky for us Napolean distracted them or we'd be speaking with a different accent.
My example was hypothetical. From your POV, you'd view every kind of engagement made by US soldiers as ones that only matter to them--Including, as I put emphasis on, soldiers fending off enemy troops from an invasion.
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I did support the police actions in the Balkans by the way.
Soldiers and cops are two very different things.
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Heh. This is a pretty cool essay on China-America:
China's America Problem
Way too long to post the article itself.
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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Oil could spark WWIIIHong Kong-based analyst Dr Marc Faber says a tug of war over oil resources between the US and China could spark World War III.
He believes World War III would erupt over conflict between the US and China over the US denial of oil resources to China.
Based on historic price performance, the international price of oil could remain in an upward trend for the next 20 years "easily", he said.
"At some point, rising commodity prices, especially oil, will eventually lead to World War III because the US has the oil China needs, but doesn't want to give it to them."
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the G-man said:
Oil could spark WWIII
[LIST]Hong Kong-based analyst Dr Marc Faber says a tug of war over oil resources between the US and China could spark World War III.
/list]
Contrarians are rarely right about anything, the Chicken Littles of finance. Remember; even a broken clock is right twice a day.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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Fox News/Reuters: Exxon Mobil Corp. (XOM) on Monday dismissed a bid to acquire it for $450 billion by a little-known Chinese concern with an apparent history of making unsolicited offers for large companies.
King Win Laurel Ltd. (search) filed papers Monday with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission offering to buy the world's largest publicly traded oil company for U.S. dollars plus Chinese yuan worth a total of $70 per share.
The company said the offer was subject to financing and carried certain incentives for shareholders should the price of oil rise further.
Exxon did not put much weight behind the offer.
"We are not aware of any communication from King Win Laurel Limited that has been delivered to the corporation. We do not believe that King Win Laurel Limited is financially capable of making such a tender offer," Exxon spokesman Dave Gardner (search) said in a statement.
King Win said it was incorporated in New Zealand on October 21 for the sole purpose of buying Exxon. Multiple calls to the Beijing number for King Win listed in the SEC documents led to either a busy signal or prolonged ringing with no answer.
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If anybody's genuinely interested in learning about China, especially their foreign policy and attitudes towards America and Europe (not to mention the rest of Asia), I'd like to recommend the following book: "The Great Wall & The Empty Fortress: China's Search For Security," by Andrew J. Nathan and Robert S. Ross. It may be a bit out of date by now, but it's still worth a read if you'd like a contextual view of what makes China tick.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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We already are 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
If anybody's genuinely interested in learning about China, especially their foreign policy and attitudes towards America and Europe (not to mention the rest of Asia), I'd like to recommend the following book: "The Great Wall & The Empty Fortress: China's Search For Security," by Andrew J. Nathan and Robert S. Ross. It may be a bit out of date by now, but it's still worth a read if you'd like a contextual view of what makes China tick.
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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I don't need to read about it. I've been there enough times to know how much it sucks.
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