RKMBs Forums .::Important::. Politics and Current Events Shit! Somebody blew up London!

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Nowhereman said:
After one line about the London bombings,its back to talking about America........how self absorbed can a person get?

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My apologies. I posted it not because of the focus on the USA, but for it's analysis of terrorism and the effectivness of current anti-terror policies. What do you think of the idea of using small special forces hunters to keep terrorists on the run and prevent them from attacking the DK, IT, UK, USA, etc. ?

The author is a US Defense Policy Analyst. Is it really surprising to see it written from a USA perspective? In case you haven't noticed, Americans are rather self-absorbed!

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Nowhereman said:
Simple fact is,it really hasnt changed that much.
We arent living our lives in fear & are just carrying on like we always do.
You have to remember,terrorist attacks are not new to us,so its not as shocking for us as a US terrorist attack is for its citizens.

I wouldnt like to say we are blase about it,but I think we are less worried about it!

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Pig Iron said:

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Nowhereman said:
Simple fact is,it really hasnt changed that much.
We arent living our lives in fear & are just carrying on like we always do.
You have to remember,terrorist attacks are not new to us,so its not as shocking for us as a US terrorist attack is for its citizens.

I wouldnt like to say we are blase about it,but I think we are less worried about it!

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Which is good because people in america are fucking tools about it sometimes..
god bless the motherland...

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I'm afraid it's true. Read the following, it confirms the idea that that the UK is really to blame.

Guardian Unlimited

Newspapers warn of threat to America from 'Londonistan'

Gary Younge in New York
Tuesday July 12, 2005


London has become a "feeding ground for hate" and a "crossroads for would-be terrorists" where Muslims exploit civil liberties to "openly preach jihad", according to newspapers in the United States.

Over the past three days, articles on front pages of newspapers across the country, including the New York Times, Los Angeles Times, San Jose Mercury News, Boston Globe and Wall Street Journal, describe the UK as a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism that threatens global security.

In articles with headlines such as "For decades London thrived as a busy crossroads for terror" (New York Times) and "Continent's Issues include Geography and Open borders: Bombers travel freely, police cannot" (Wall Street Journal), the American press argue that London is a global hub for Islamic fundamentalism and terrorist cells.

"If London became a magnet for fiery preachers, it also became a destination for men willing to carry out their threats," said a front page report in the Times on Sunday. "For a decade, the city has been a crossroads for would-be terrorists who used it as a home base, where they could raise money, recruit members and draw inspiration from the militant messages."

Although the identities and nationalities of those who committed the terrorist attacks are not yet known, the pieces hinge on the assumption that they are British citizens who have been in the country for a considerable amount of time.

Relying primarily on the analysis of US terrorism experts, they argue that the government's reluctance to enforce stricter surveillance and anti-terror legislation for fear of upsetting Muslims has left the UK and the rest of Europe more vulnerable to terrorism.

"London is easily the most jihadist hub in western Europe," Roger Cressy, a former White House counterterrorism official, told the Los Angeles Times. "London has been an indoctrination and recruiting centre for many years," Michael Radu, a terrorism expert at the Foreign Policy Research Institute in Philadelphia, told the Philadelphia Tribune.

In the Wall Street Journal, the former head of the State Department's counter-terrorism centre, Larry Johnson, said Britain had been too squeamish about respecting Muslims' rights.

As a result, argues Peter Bergen, a fellow of the New America Foundation, British Muslims pose "one of the greatest terrorist threats to the United States".

In a comment piece, Mr Bergen questions whether America's safety is compromised by allowing Britons to come to the US without a visa, given "the reality that Islamic militant groups in Britain ... represent a growing threat to the United States that will continue for many years to come". So entrenched is the British capital as an outpost of the Muslim diaspora, that London is now commonly referred to as "Londonistan" - a word used several times in different papers.

· President George Bush yesterday used the bomb attacks on London as renewed justification for the war on terror, writes Jamie Wilson. "These kind of people who blow up subways and buses are not people you can negotiate with, or reason with, or appease," he said in a speech at FBI training headquarters in Virginia.
Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2005

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Pig Iron said:

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Nowhereman said:
Simple fact is,it really hasnt changed that much.
We arent living our lives in fear & are just carrying on like we always do.
You have to remember,terrorist attacks are not new to us,so its not as shocking for us as a US terrorist attack is for its citizens.

I wouldnt like to say we are blase about it,but I think we are less worried about it!

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Which is good because people in america are fucking tools about it sometimes..
god bless the motherland...

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I mean, my first thought when I heard -- just on a personal basis, when I heard there had been this attack and I saw the futures this morning, which were really in the tank, I thought, "Hmmm, time to buy."

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PaulWellr said:
Brit Hume's first thoughts on the London bombings

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I mean, my first thought when I heard -- just on a personal basis, when I heard there had been this attack and I saw the futures this morning, which were really in the tank, I thought, "Hmmm, time to buy."

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Jesus....

And as has been mentioned above, terrorist bombings in the U.K. are nothing new. The right wing media in the U.S. seems almost completely unaware of this. I've heard statements along the lines of "now they know how terror feels like" and "now they'll take the war on terror seriously".

People can't be that oblivious, can they?

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Hey, we're Amerikan. We're expected to be oblivious!

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magicjay said:

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PaulWellr said:
Brit Hume's first thoughts on the London bombings

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I mean, my first thought when I heard -- just on a personal basis, when I heard there had been this attack and I saw the futures this morning, which were really in the tank, I thought, "Hmmm, time to buy."

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Jesus....

And as has been mentioned above, terrorist bombings in the U.K. are nothing new. The right wing media in the U.S. seems almost completely unaware of this. I've heard statements along the lines of "now they know how terror feels like" and "now they'll take the war on terror seriously".

People can't be that oblivious, can they?

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Hey, we're Amerikan. We're expected to be oblivious!

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PaulWellr said:
I've heard statements along the lines of "now they know how terror feels like" and "now they'll take the war on terror seriously".

People can't be that oblivious, can they?

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First Amongst Daves said:

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Americans aren't obllivious. They funded the IRA terror campaign of London for decades, and only stopped after 9/11 when it happened to them.

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Wasn't that Irish-Americans, at least primarily?

Explosions struck three London Underground stations and a bus at midday Thursday in a chilling but less deadly replay of the suicide bombings that killed 56 people two weeks ago.

Only one person was reported wounded, but the lunch-hour explosions caused major shock and disruption in the capital and were hauntingly similar to the July 7 bombings by four attackers.

The London police commissioner confirmed Thursday that four explosions took place in what he described as "a very serious incident."

"We've had four explosions - four attempts at explosions," Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair said outside police headquarters at Scotland Yard.

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the G-man said:
Sadly, it just happened again

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the G-man said:
Sadly, it just happened again:

Explosions struck three London Underground stations and a bus at midday Thursday in a chilling but less deadly replay of the suicide bombings that killed 56 people two weeks ago.

Only one person was reported wounded, but the lunch-hour explosions caused major shock and disruption in the capital and were hauntingly similar to the July 7 bombings by four attackers.

The London police commissioner confirmed Thursday that four explosions took place in what he described as "a very serious incident."

"We've had four explosions - four attempts at explosions," Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair said outside police headquarters at Scotland Yard.

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PenWing said:
Are you serious, WBAM?

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PaulWellr said:...

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the G-man said:

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PaulWellr said:...

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By the way, Paul, how far is where you live in England from London? Any problems where you are?

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British police Wednesday arrested one of the four alleged terrorists who botched an attack on London's transit system on July 21, British news outlets reported.

Sky News — a sister news organization to FOX News — identified the suspect as being Yasin Hassan Omar (search). Officers with Scotland Yard (search) staged an early morning raid in Birmingham, arresting Omar and three other men.

Officers zapped Omar with a taser gun to subdue him, Sky reported. He was taken to the high-security facility at London's Paddington Green police station (search) for questioning.

Elsewhere, off-duty British police nabbed two men traveling on a train in England's Western Midlands region. Lincolnshire police said the train, which was on its way to London's King's Cross station from Newcastle, was stopped at Grantham where the men were arrested late Tuesday.

And police arrested a man at Luton's airport near London under anti-terrorism legislation as he prepared to leave on a flight for France, authorities said. Police did not say why he was arrested or if it was connected with the recent London attacks.

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the G-man said:
Columnist John Leo points out how political correctness may allow similar bombings in the United States.

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klinton said:

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the G-man said:
Columnist John Leo points out how political correctness may allow similar bombings in the United States.

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Then so fucking be it. Seriously....you can't assume guilt until actions have been taken. That is the foundation of your justice system...not political correctness.

Anything else is sick and inhuman.

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Wednesday said:
I guess the NY cap and baby onboard makes the guy on the RIGHT correct.

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My thoughts exactly.

But I think that it is inevitable that middle eastern men are more likely to be search at the moment. Potential bombers are going to Middle Eastern. The issue is how you go about it. If you piss off innocent people you just do the recruiting. But as long as the police handle it sensitively. (Hmmm may be in trouble here, could have annoyed my fellow lefties by advocating profiling, while irritating the right by using words such as "sensitive" )

At least we can stop searching all the Catholics now that the IRA have pledge to down arms!

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Yeshshiembet Girma, 29, and Muluemebet Girma, 21, of separate addresses in south London, were charged with failing to disclose information that could have helped police secure the arrest, prosecution or conviction of a person involved in terrorism, a Metropolitan Police spokeswoman said....

The first person charged --? Ismael Abdurahman, 23, from southeast London --? appeared in court Thursday to face charges of withholding information that helped suspected subway bomber Hamdi Issac avoid capture....

In the first court hearing in Britain in the attacks, Ismael Abdurahman, 23, from southeast London, spoke only to confirm his name and age. He was not asked to enter a plea during a 10-minute hearing in Bow Street Magistrates' Court before being led off to jail. He is scheduled to appear in court again next Thursday....

Britain is holding 14 suspects in the investigation, and Italy has three. Police believe they have all the July 21 bombers in custody....

Britain has requested that Issac, also known as Osman Hussain, be extradited from Italy. His lawyer, Antonietta Sonnessa, said an extradition hearing was set for Aug. 17.

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"There has been a debate on whether we are facing an insurgency or terrorism," said the source, "and the verdict is on the side of an insurgency."

So, our British allies, which have all but outlawed practical self defense with firearms and even cooking knives, find themselves in the lamentable position of feeling like naked sheep before armed wolves.

Granted, this story doesn't quite pass the smell test, seeming to be highly sensationalized. 10,000 people who know how to something doesn't equate 10,000 people that will use that knowledge for nefarious purposes. There are tens millions of people in Britain who know both how to drive and how to toss back a pint, but I haven't heard of governmental worries of an insurgency of drunk drivers... though it might explain why they all drive on the wrong side of the road…

No, I doubt there is a real insurgency or intifada threat to England, but I also know that any threat of that sort is far more likely to succeed in a disarmed society like Britain than it ever would in the United States.

Remember the North Hollywood shootout? Two heavily-armed criminals with body armor terrorized Los Angeles for 44 minutes, and the LAPD was almost powerless to stop them. Police officers were forced to grab rifles from civilian gun stores, as their police weapons (incidentally, of the same 9x19mm caliber as the pistols and sub-machineguns of British police) were no match for the criminal's armor.

This was a robbery gone bad, perpetrated by just two men. Now imagine a dozen fireteams of 3-4 terrorists, armed with AK-47s and covered in body armor, set loose upon a major metropolitan city.

Normal police weapons such as pistols and submachine guns will not workagainst most body armor, even with multiple hits. In return, the 7.62x39mm round of the AK-47 cuts though most police-issue body armor like a hot knife through butter. It has all the makings of a slaughter.

SWAT teams will not be able to respond quickly due to the chaos, and even in those locations where they can respond, they will respond late (SWAT teams are made up of regular officers who must report to a centralized location to be outfitted before an engagement), and they will be unprepared for a force-on-force battle in the open (most SWAT teams are prepared for CQB assaults on fixed positions) against a trained enemy.

That leaves the city in question largely defended by under-armed (or in Britain, unarmed) patrol officers, and the citizens that decide that taking action into their own hands is their best chance of survival.

Now, in which country would these civilians and patrol officers have a better chance of survival?

English police officers, while brave, would not stand a chance without firearms, and they have little hope of citizens being able to step in to offer credible assistance with their butter knives. Citizen and officer alike would be nearly powerless. They are reduced to waiting until the terrorists run out of ammunition, which isn't exactly a plan I'd endorse.

American citizens, on the other hand, could potentially help their police, or at the very least might be able to offer up some defense of their own lives. The Second Amendment was designed to help the American people defend themselves against tyranny.

If there is indeed another terrorist attack in England, I wouldn’t be very surprised to see the British people push for a similar right to self-defense.

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Steve T said:

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Wednesday said:
I guess the NY cap and baby onboard makes the guy on the RIGHT correct.

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My thoughts exactly.

But I think that it is inevitable that middle eastern men are more likely to be search at the moment. Potential bombers are going to Middle Eastern. The issue is how you go about it. If you piss off innocent people you just do the recruiting. But as long as the police handle it sensitively. (Hmmm may be in trouble here, could have annoyed my fellow lefties by advocating profiling, while irritating the right by using words such as "sensitive" )

At least we can stop searching all the Catholics now that the IRA have pledge to down arms!

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Leak disputes Menezes death story


An image leaked to ITV News shows Mr de Menezes lying dead

Leaked documents appear to contradict the official account of how police mistook a Brazilian man for a suicide bomber and shot him.
The papers, from the probe into Jean Charles de Menezes' death, and leaked to ITV, suggest he was restrained before being shot eight times.

Mr de Menezes, 27, was killed at Stockwell Tube station on 22 July.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) has said it will not comment on its investigation.

Public inquiry


The documents, including witness statements, also suggest Mr de Menezes did not hurdle the barrier at Stockwell tube station, as first reports previously suggested, and was not wearing a padded jacket that could have concealed a bomb.

The family of Mr de Menezes has called for a public inquiry into his death.



The leak suggests the electrician was restrained before shot

His cousin Allessandro Pereira said: "My family deserve the full truth about his murder. The truth cannot be hidden any longer. It has to be made public."

He said the police should have stopped his cousin before he got to the bus stop after leaving home in Tulse Hill. "He would have helped the police," he said.

"They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone, any English person."

In a statement, the IPCC said it does not know where the documents came from and that its priority was to keep Mr de Menezes family informed.

'Acting suspiciously'

The shooting occurred the day after the failed bomb attacks of 21 July.

The latest documents suggest Mr de Menezes had walked into Stockwell Tube station, picked up a free newspaper, walked through ticket barriers, had started to run when he saw a train arriving and was sitting down in a train when he was shot.

In the immediate aftermath of the incident, police said Mr de Menezes had been acting suspiciously and suggested he had vaulted the ticket barriers.

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The IPCC made it clear that we would not speculate or release partial information about the investigation, and that others should not do so

IPCC statement

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Police also said the Brazilian electrician had worn a large winter-style coat - but the leaked version suggested he had in fact worn a denim jacket.

The leaked version said Mr de Menezes was being restrained by a community officer when he was shot by armed police.

'High security'

The IPCC would not comment on the details of the leak.

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What sort of society are we living in where we can execute suspects?

Harriet Wistrich

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The commission said the family "will clearly be distressed that they have received information on television concerning his death".

Its statement added: "The IPCC made it clear that we would not speculate or release partial information about the investigation, and that others should not do so. That remains the case."

The commission said it operated a "very high degree of security" on all of its investigations.

'Great embarrassment'

Harriet Wistrich, solicitor for the family of Mr de Menezes, said the information the leaked documents contained was "terrifying".

She urged the government and police to review the shoot-to-kill policy.

"What sort of society are we living in where we can execute suspects?" she said.

"First of all it tells us that the information that was first put out, which was first reported in the news, is almost entirely wrong and misleading.

"There was no suggestion that this person was a suspect in any way, that he was running from the police".

She said it also suggested the information given to the pathologist who carried out the post-mortem examination on Mr de Menezes was incorrect.

Former Flying Squad commander John O'Connor told the BBC the leaked report would cause "great embarrassment" to Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair, adding he would be under pressure to "go".

He also said it was "very difficult" to blame individuals for the death of Mr de Menezes.

"Simply because it would appear that they were acting on information that this was a positive identification of Osman [Hussain], one of the suspect bombers.

"But had the normal procedures taken place in which a warning is given and officers wear specially marked clothing then this young man may not have been killed."

Scotland Yard and the Home Office have so far said it would be inappropriate to comment.

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