RKMBs Forums .::Important::. Deep Topics Is religion good for society?

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Pariah said:

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Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:

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Pariah said:
As per usual, everything is about me.

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So, according to you, I can't have an opinion without being called an attention whore. Interesting.

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Jim Jackson said:

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True, scientists do operate on faith sometimes. But the very core of their belief in science is that the facts and evidence create conclusions.

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True.

And science does not assume what the causal factor is. Scientists test their assertions and leave those assertions open to falsifiability based on empirical evidence.

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The reason 'Intelligent Design' is not science is that it has a conclusion and seeks evidence to support that conclusion. True science works the other way around; evidence leads to conclusion not conclusion needs evidence.

I think we may have an example of cognitive dissonance in action here. Believers are presented with evidence that conflicts with their initial conclusions about the nature of the world, causing psychic disequalibrium. With Intelligent Design theory they can pick and choose evidence that supports there initial beliefs and return to a state of psychic equalibrium. They are once again happy campers!

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thedoctor said:
The argument against religion here seems to hinge upon pure science. Well, guess what, folks. Science isn't any more pure than religion. Yes, the best scientests don't test for a certain conclusion or desired effect; but that is not always true. Just like there are Christians and Jews and etc., etc. who fall short of their religion's goals, there are scientest that do the same. Scientists argue over the meaning of findings as well as their implications. They look for specific answers to certain questions. Science has it's fallibilities and unanswered questions just as religions do. Neither is perfect; therefore, I believe, any point of view that hinges out the flaws of one and does not address the flaws of the other is lacking.

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Captain Sammitch said:
You don't start an empty church. There's always been a minority of Christians in Iraq. This church was started as a support structure for those Christians already there - in fact, it was their idea to begin with. What happened to protecting the freedoms of minorities?

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And another thing - I know a lot of you can't be expected to understand why Christians and others proselytize.

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But I find it odd that in so many other threads on this forum, the integrity of paid journalists is defended fiercely, while the motives of non-profit denominational organizations are always called into question.

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thedoctor said:
The argument against religion here seems to hinge upon pure science.

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magicjay said:
Well, the entire article was published, as the abstract states, in the journal Nature. You might try there.

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MagicJay said:
Of course you know this statement makes no sense.

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magicjay said:
The reason 'Intelligent Design' is not science is that it has a conclusion and seeks evidence to support that conclusion. True science works the other way around; evidence leads to conclusion not conclusion needs evidence.

I think we may have an example of cognitive dissonance in action here. Believers are presented with evidence that conflicts with their initial conclusions about the nature of the world, causing psychic disequalibrium. With Intelligent Design theory they can pick and choose evidence that supports there initial beliefs and return to a state of psychic equalibrium. They are once again happy campers!

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majicjay said:
Silly me. I thought the OT says The Grand Poobah created the heavens and Earth. It's far more plausable that a dense iron core planet, the third one of four, sprang magically into the set 12m years ago, 5 billion years after the others were formed!

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Magicjay said
Why don't you just answer the question? You've presented falsehoods as truth.

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That leaves two possibilities; either you're ignorant of the truth or you're lieing. Which is it?

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r3x29yz4a said:
Solomon. And it was a standard practice for lords of houses in the Bible to take many wives.

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Please show me the verses in the Bible that discuss genetics.

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Sodomy used to mean a lot of thinks. There was a point where sodomy was any sex act that wasn't man on top of woman.

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Translation: People are getting mad at Pariah for being an idiot.

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oookay...

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which is just not true. secular people and secular cultures aren't the babykilling rapists you seem to think they are.

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and you don't think most of the religious laws are set up to keep people in line?

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They were pretty much the same in terms of morals as any other culture at the time.

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Remember many "christian cultures" kept slaves for over a thousand years after christ.

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you can't base your argument on "because and expect any one to take you seriously. Its like me saying Superman is real because it says so in Action Comics.

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and as I've said before. You may be able to show evidence for certain geological events that took place in the bible, but there's no proof of the people involved and the acts they performed.

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but if it was a slow flood then a whole bunch of people would've had time to build arcs and survive, which undermines the point of Noah.

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isn't there a bible quote about turning the other cheek.

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and by your logic, are you cool if indians came into your house and slaughtered you because we attacked them first?

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you don't know much about (real) history do you? the pope back then was not like the pope of nowadays. He could order kings around under threat of excommunication.

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so revenge is now "cool" for catholics?

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The IRA, Timothy Mcveigh, David Koresh. Neither side is free of crazy killer fanatics.

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I'm talking about your everyday average member of each church. An average Christian will try and convert whenever possible, an average Muslim will not, an average Jew will not.

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You look stupid when you assume that all Muslims are terrorists.

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But the Jews got over it. And this was 2 thousand years ago.

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The Christians were oppressing Jews as recently as a few centuries ago.

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True, scientists do operate on faith sometimes. But the very core of their belief in science is that the facts and evidence create conclusions. I can prove gravity easier than you can prove heaven.

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Fine, Pariah. The Earth is 12,000 years old. We all sprung up from dust and a man's rib.
That really does make a lot more sense than evolution and a slowly evolving and developing planet.

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The Bible is never wrong. The writers of the bible never fudged the details. Kings and priests never altered it at all over the thousands of years.

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they why isn't god active in the last few thousand years?

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why is he so big in the bible, but more of a mysterious force in today's christianity?

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why do good christians die needessly when god can just come along and snap his fingers to save them?

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There is no way to believe 100% of what's in the bible through the prism of the real world.

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well, where was (Judeo) god in Japan/China/Russia/the Americas?
Are the mideast people the only ones worthy? If that's true then is it okay to slaughter non-middle easterns because they're not descendants of the holy people?

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r3x said:
the current pope was a Nazi.

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if you think that all morals are based on religious morals then that's the same as saying that religion has a monopoly on morality.

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what about dinosaurs? or did I dream them?

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Jim Jackson said:
And science does not assume what the causal factor is. Scientists test their assertions and leave those assertions open to falsifiability based on empirical evidence.

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Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
No, according to me, others can't have a different opinion without you thinking we're all reacting to your posts:

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Most of us ignore your long rants, you know.

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Pariah said:

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God can do anything. *shrug*

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Then why do you bother trying so hard to defend him and prove he exists? If I see a ninja being attacked I know he can take care of himself and stay out of it.
Yes, that ninja situation has come up before.

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Solomon was a book of poems that were describing the women, and the names of those women, who were devoted to Christ. “Married to the Lord”. As for “standard practice”: Whilst I’m aware of some people in the Bible being described as polygamous, I don’t remember any Biblical lesson telling us specifically that it’s okay to marry multiple women.

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does it ever say specifically not to? Because if it shows an act that some may find immoral like, I don't know, slavery. And it doesn't condemn that act then it is condoning the act in a roundabout way.

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I said:
Please show me the verses in the Bible that discuss genetics.

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he replied: It’s elementary logic.

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but you can't do that. You can't reject logic on one hand because it contradicts something in the bible (age of earth) then use logic to support some unspoken biblical rule, especially one as farfetched as that.
Give me one ancient text that mentions genetic.

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…..So? What does that have to do with my specific reference? You know what I was referring to since I was using modern context. And this particular context was not only specifically banned in Sodom and Gommorah, but also Leviticus. In which case, that’s (slightly) irrelevant, because I was saying sodomy on a mass scale, and a small one, isn’t society-friendly, namely it’s not healthy. Anyway, the point is, you know what context I was using.

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How does sodomy actually effect society? Or you in general?
The people of Soddom and Gamorah weren't a community of gay men that were wiped out, they were a community of sexual perverts. The main sin mentioned by the Angels is the fact that the citizens commit rape.

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which is just not true. secular people and secular cultures aren't the babykilling rapists you seem to think they are.

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I never said they are. I said they would have been without Christianity/Judaism. Religions.

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how did the world survive even 10,000 of your christian years, or 9,000 years of your Jewish years before we were saved by the mighty Yaweh?
First of all, Jerusalem is not considered by anyone to be the cradle of civilization.
Ancient Greece is. You remember them? Pesky little pre-judeo christians who created democracy? And what about wacky Socrates? Or zany Plato? Those pre-judeo christian guys who were the first philosophers to discuss values and ethics?
They don't count do they? Why? Because it was Zues instead of Jesus? Or because if you admit they were the foundation of moral societies (instead of slave-owning, inquisition-starting christian societies) then you'd have to also admit that a moral society could accept homosexuality.

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Of course some are, but they have what secular laws lack: Sense of morals. In the end, there is no rooted moral standard that originated from static secularism. It was through religion (Christianity/Judaism) that morality was instilled in secular law.

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the religion of Zeus (see above point)

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…….Uh…..Yeah. Exactly. No concept of morals. Pre-Christianity/Judaism, their was no morality in relation to their secularity/poly-theistic theocracies at all.

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again, I point out the greeks.

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Meaning, you’re being out-argued and so you’re trying to desperately (pathetically) shift weight.

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meaning you don't find slavery to be an immoral act that shames a society?

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So what examples are you trying to use to paint Christianity as amoral in the face of slavery.

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yes. Slavery from ancient times was about using criminals and prisoners of war. Treatment of slaves was also governed by standards, and a good deal of slavery wasn't a lifelong obligation.

It was only in christian countries where slavery became about imprisoning an entire race for life based on them not being "god's people."

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The Bible isn’t Action Comics.

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unprovable stories about supernatural deeds.

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As I already told you, the Bible is historically accepted by secular culture

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no its accepted by christians. no other religion sees the bible as 100% accurate. and all the government officials that do, are judeo christian (so obviously they'd support it as fact).

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meaning it’s a valid source of historical backing, which you’d have to adhere if you want to be “taken seriously”. Avoiding it simply because you hate Christianity and don’t “take it seriously” isn’t a valid excuse. It’s just exemplification of bias on your part. I don’t take evolution seriously or find it at all factual, but I at least address the subject with serious intent. I don’t feel I should have to, but I do simply because the majority of the people here (and on the planet) believe in it.

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again, christians believe it. we happen to have 98% christian politicians (a good example of morality?) and any one who doesn't believe in the bible would avoid the issue to not alienate voters.

and if you take into account muslims, jews, hindus, buddhists and all the atheist/agnostics then you have about 4 billion people who either; don't believe in the bible, think its been heavily altered, or think its got some truth and some fiction.

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No. They wouldn’t have. The pre-flood civilization wasn’t ocean faring, they were too far into the mainland. Furthermore, it took Noah a couple of centuries to finish the arc after he was given the instructions on how to build it. They did not have that much time to create more vessels.

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okay. pay attention now.
if the water was slow rising, then non-ocean faring people probably still would've realized the need to build a boat, and would've learned to do so.

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……Holy shit! You’re as loony as Jay. I mean, seriously, this stuff is worse than the first time you decided to challenge everyone using lies and talking about history you weren’t even aware of.

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lies=disagree with pariah?
being loony=proving pariah's argument to be off-base?

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No. That’s just your patented ad hominem. You usually accompany them with straw mans when you’re shown to be full of shit—As per usual.

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I don't think you know what an ad hominem is:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ad%20hominem
by insulting me as your reply you pulled an ad hominem.

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With a big difference. It’s in the doctrine of Muslims to do what they’ve done.

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if that were true then why aren't all muslims terrorists?
I know a few very religious muslims. they can be touchy sometimes, but they're non-violent and believe in a peaceful way of life.
jihad has many meanings. it is mainly a struggle to maintain one's faith and purity of being (hence the Isalmic belief in not eating certain animals and never drinking alcohol).
its been misinterpreted to mean soley an act of violence.

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According to their majority, we’ve offended them somehow, and now they want retribution based on their teachings.

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muslims do believe in defending themselves from invasions. and we have butt ourselves into their countries and fucked them up in many ways.

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The IRA has no such blessing from religion or the Vatican in general.

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and the majority of muslim leaders have denounced terrorism. and the majority of muslims are appalled by the acts of violence.

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So this is an example of Christians forcing you to convert.

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if they're trying to shove a flyer in my face, and waking me up with a knock on the door then yes, they are trying to convert me.

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Where did I say “all Muslims are terrorists”? Seriously, where? Map out what I said for you to get the idea that I said, “all Muslims are terrorists”.

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read your above statements. you said their church teaches violence.

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No they didn’t, they just became out numbered.

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Zion conspiracy?

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Whatever. I just hope you’ve figured out at this point that monopolizing blame on the religion which you place the most hatred in and exempting others simply because they don’t annoy you is no way to make a point.

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whatever?
are you a valley girl these days, pariah?
I said specifically i didn't hate christians, simply find them the most obnoxious and offending.

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However, simply because faith doesn’t provide direct and tangible proof of Heaven, that does not mean it cannot logically exist.

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true. but I won't sit around pretending it does exist and gearing my whole life to get in.

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And that’s one more thing secularists have failed to prove: An editing of the Bible.

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that's not even scientists, that's different sects of christianity and religious scholars.

and christians can't prove most of the events in the bible. scientists can show some evidence of evolution.

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Because God made His point in the form of the Bible. After he conglomerated all of his lessons for mankind, we shouldn’t need His viewed presence by the senses to prove His existence.

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if there are non-believers you do.

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His punishments and His rewards were demonstrated in the Old Testament. He wanted to make clear how He felt about sin. And that would reflect onto the current era and we’d understand what to do to get into His good graces.

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an all loving god who's love we have to earn?
does that make sense?

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A person passing on from this world isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

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then kill yourself and works out for everyone.

Those “good Christians” would be saved by him if they were truly good. [/qupte]
everyone christian that dies is hellbound?

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And that’s simply because we’ve festered the perceptions that God doesn’t exist for the past half millennia. Whilst in its place, evolution takes the popular stand and misleads people into believing it’s the truth when after so much failure, it’s so obviously fiction.

The words of the Bible have weight. People simply choose not to acknowledge it. That fact alone does not mean the Bible’s teaching can’t be reality.

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the bible says people and a planet just popped into being over a week of hardwork. science and common sense would say it took time for everything to come together and develop.

the bible's teachings is about as real as the respect you think you have here. (zing)

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WE’RE ALL DECENDENTS FROM THE “HOLY PEOPLE” YOU STUPID FUCK!!
if everyone came from the same two people, why don't we all look related (unless people evolved to have different races)?
and the question was where are the Judeo-christian teachings in those ancient countries?
if we're all from the same two people and the same godly people then the "word of god" would be in all those countries ancient texts.

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Europe and the Middle East were God’s catalysts.

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despite the fact that there is proof of Africans existing first, and the Chinese developing culture long before Europe.

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Christ’s influence created missionaries,

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thousands of years (even by your own count) after mankind started?

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namely the Apostles, and they traveled all over the world and spread the Word.

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show me one shred of proof they went to Asia, Africa, and the Americas. Because you said the apostles, not missionaries.
and if god really wanted them to spread the word to everyone about Christ he would've ensured that first contact with Christ in the Americas would've been something nicer than Conquistadors.

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In the end, just about all of the Globe has gotten a chance to turn to God.

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at the point of a sword/gun?

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r3x said:
the current pope was a Nazi.

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Or, more accurately, he was apart of the Hitler youth.

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he was a member of Hitler's belief system.

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Tell me r3x, why do you feel the need to lie—All the time?

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just because what I say on religion contradicts what you believe to be true doesn't make it a lie.

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As I already said, it originally did. If it wasn’t for its influence, secularity wouldn’t have had a standard of morality.

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and as I've already pointed out it was the Morality of Zeus' chosen people.

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Actually, dinosaurs were mentioned in the Bible. I believe God pointed Noe in the direction of a dinosaur and proceeded to explain his physiology. Surprise surprise the description was that of a Brachiosaur. I also believe the Leviathan, mentioned in Old Testament again, was described as looking like the Lochnee Monster.

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what does that prove about dinosaurs starting millions of years before mankind?

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Pariah said:

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Jim Jackson said:
And science does not assume what the causal factor is. Scientists test their assertions and leave those assertions open to falsifiability based on empirical evidence.

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No. They don’t.

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Captain Sammitch said:
You do realize very few of us intend to read that whole thing, right?

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theory9 said:
it wasn't a mistake that the Catholic Church tacitly sided with the Nazis in WWII anymore than all religions continue to assert us vs. them throughout the world.

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Pariah said:
The Catholic Church did no such thing. Pope Pious, what I'm sure you're referring to, was harrassed by the Nazis. How exactly are you going to try and assert that the Church "sided" with the Nazis when they denounced them just as vehemently as the allies?

Then I said: Catholic and Nazis 1 and Catcholics and Nazis 2 and Catholics and Nazis 3. That's how the fuck I'm gonna assert it. With the fuckin' truth.

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r3x29yz4a said:
as a side note, during the 14th century the Pope proclaimed that Cats were evil familiars of Witches and the Devil.

Mass exterminations of cats took place, which allowed the rat population to increase exponentially, which of course allowed the rapid spread of plagues.

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The Pope just can't take a joke!

PEOPLE AND RELIGION



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The Nazis were forced to tolerate religion in Germany, but as Martin Bormann exclaimed:
"National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable."

Hitler supported this view, stating:
"One day we want to be in a position where only complete idiots stand in the pulpit and preach to old women."


The Nazis viewed Christianity as a faith tainted by Jews.

In response, the Nazis offered the German people a new religion based on blood, soil, Germanic folklore and the Thousand-Year Reich.

The Nazis were no different here [from] earleir revolutionaries who tried to offer the people a brave new secular world. It was no surprise that racial supremacy played a large part in this new "religion".

Nazis who still wanted a spiritual home were offered a new faith called Gottglaubig ( God believing ) as an alternative to the established churches.
The movement was heavily tainted with peculiar pagan practices. It was given official sanction by the Nazi authorities, and by 1939 the number of "God believers" exceeded three million.
The Nazis stressed romantic notions of the pagan past, while simultaneously repressing the established churches.

The Nazis were unwilling to tolerate (as with the family ) an alternative power center [existing] in the Christian religion. The rituals of life associated with the Church --birth, marriage and death-- were all criticized.
As part of this attack, the Nazis also changed the calander to downplay Christian celebrations, and emphasize non-Christian Ceremonies. Thus in 1938, carols and the Nativity play were forbidden in schools; at the same time, Christmas was replaced with the new term "Yuletide".



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PROTESTANTISM AND GLEICHSCHALTUNG



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The more extreme Nazis looked to extend the Nazi policy of Gleichschaltung ( Coordination ) to the churches.
This policy of coordination aimed to fuse all areas of German life together into a supreme Nazi machine.
Anything or anyone that opposed this process was suspect, and a collection of Nazi organizations tried to bring together all aspects of German life under Nazi authority.

A series of laws passed by the Nazis after 1933 were designed to destroy the traditions and priveleges of the old German states and create a centralized one-party state. From the mass of new legislation, new power groups developed: Labour Front, SS, SD and Gestapo.

The churches were an obvious target, and in April 1933 hard-line Nazis demanded immediate Gleichschaltung of all Evangelical churches.

The response of the two major denominations in Germany ( Roman Catholic and Protestant) was mixed: some acquiesced to Nazi demands, others met the new threat with determined opposition.

Nazi Protestants ( often called "Positive Christians" ) believed that Jesus Christ had been sent to them in the form of Hitler, that God had sanctified the Aryan way of life and that racial mixing was wrong.
With this in mind, "Positive Christians" attempterd to pass a motion that required Aryan origin as a basis for clerical office.

Pastor Martin Neimoller took over leadership of the Confessional Church and formed a Pastors' Emergency League ( Pfarrbund ) to oppose the [pro-Nazi]hardliners.

Neimoller was an ex-World War I submarine captain, awarded the Pour le Merite decoration, who subsequently studied theology and was ordained in 1924.
Some 7000 pastors joined Neimoller's opposition, but Nazi persecution decimated their ranks.
Meanwhile, "Positive Christians" attacked the Old Testament and those parts of the New Testament considered tainted by Judaism.
The policies of the "Positive Christians" were heavily criticized by many in the Protestant Churches. And were attacked by those such as Neimoller.
In the end, The Nazis' attempts at Gleichschaltung for Protestantism failed.
But this did not stop the Nazis from persecuting religious opponents, including Neimoller, who was imprisoned in 1937, and subsequently sent to a concentration camp.

When the Protestant Churches went on record in 1935 to say that the entire Nazi racial folk Weltanschaung was nonsense, 700 ministers were arrested, humiliated, and their civil liberties restricted.

Ultimately, while the Nazis failed to absorb these churches, by the late 1930's the policies of repression had effectively stifled open opposition within the Protestant movement.



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THE CATHOLIC CHURCH



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The Catholic Church represented more formidable opposition for the Nazis.

The Catholics had two advantages over the Protestants:
1) theirs was a truly international faith, under the central leadership of the Vatican:
2) Catholics had a political party in Germany, the Centre Party, to represent their interests.

The Catholic Church hoped to use its political influence to deflect Nazi interference in Church matters.

Therefore, the Centre Party supported the Enabling Law of 1933 ( a sweeping measure to enable the Nazi gobvernment to make laws without the approval of the [legislative] Reichstag ) that formed the constitutional basis of Nazi rule, in the hope that this support would paay dividends in the Nazi policy toward Catholics.

Hitler was careful not to antagonize the Catholic Church, and his conciliatory phrases lulled them into a false sense of security.

It was also the case that most German Catholics ( and Protestants) were indifferent to the all-embracing Nazi ideology that made complete claim on all Germans, and they failed to see its potential to threaten the established religions.

By 1936, the Catholic Church was making official representations to Hitler about Nazi interference in its affairs.
When Cardinal Faulhaber, the Church's representative, complained about new laws for sterilization of those with genetic diseases, Hitler lost his temper and told the Cardinal not to interfere.
Five months after Faulhaber's encopunter with the Fuhrer, Pope Pius XI issued an extraordinary encyclical entitled With Deep Anxiety that condemned Nazi attacks on the Church. The Pope reminded Hitler that man as a human being possessed rights that must be preserved against every attempt by the community to deny, suppress or hinder them.

This encyclical was read from the pulpit in all of Germany's Catholic churches.

The Nazis responded by making attacks on priests, monks, and nuns in the state-controlled press, and then arresting and charging a number of them on trumped-up accusations of financial and sexual impropriety.
Gobbels, himself a former Catholic, orchestrated these attacks and sent hundreds of nuns and priests to the concentration camps.

In the end, both Christian Churches [Protestant and Catholic] failed to understand the threat the Nazis represented. While many individual clergy acted heroically, the Churches as organized bodies did little to impede the Nazi takeover of Germany; their response was to issue feeble objections rather than organize mass protest.
The Churches (and all Germans) would have done well to heed the famous comment by Paster Neimoller:

First the Nazis went after the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did not object. Then they went after the Catholics, but I wasn't a Catholic, so I did not object. Then they went for the trade unionists, but I was not a trade-unionist so I did not object. Then they came after me, and by then there was no one left to object."



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r3x29yz4a said:

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Captain Sammitch said:
You do realize very few of us intend to read that whole thing, right?

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a sure sign that you have nothing valid to say anymore on the subject.

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Captain Sammitch said:

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r3x29yz4a said:

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Captain Sammitch said:
You do realize very few of us intend to read that whole thing, right?

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a sure sign that you have nothing valid to say anymore on the subject.

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Actually, I would interpret it as evidence that nobody has said much of late that is of any real value. You think just because I don't read everything you have to say that I'm missing something? Hell, I could skip a good four out of every five posts you've made on this board and not miss much! Get that weak shit outta here!

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Wonder Boy said:
From INSIDE HITLER'S GERMANY: Life Under the Third Reich, by Matthew Hughes and Chris Mann, pages 80-84

PEOPLE AND RELIGION



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The Nazis were forced to tolerate religion in Germany, but as Martin Bormann exclaimed:

"National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable."

Hitler supported this view, stating:
"One day we want to be in a position where only complete idiots stand in the pulpit and preach to old women."
The Nazis viewed Christianity as a faith tainted by Jews.

in response, the Nazis offered the German people a new religion based on blood, soil, Germanic folklore and the Thousand-Year Reich.
The Nazis were no different here [from] earleir revolutionaries who tried to offer the people a brave new secular world. It was no surprise that racial supremacy played a large part in this new "religion".

Nazis who still wanted a spiritual home were offered a new faith called Gottglaubig ( God beleiving ) as an alternative to the established churches.
The movement was heavily tainted with peculiar pagan practices. It was given official sanction by the Nazi authorities, and by 1939 the number of "God believers" exceeded three million.
The Nazis stressed romantic notions of the pagan past, while simultaneously repressing the established churches.

The Nazis were unwilling to tolerate (as with the family ) an alternative power center [existing] in the Christian religion. The rituals of life associated with the Church --birth, marriage and death-- were all criticized.
As part of this attack, the Nazis also changed the calander to downplay Christian celebrations, and emphasize non-Christian Ceremonies. Thus in 1938, carols and the Nativity play were forbidden in schools; at the same time, Christmas was replaced with the new term "Yuletide".



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PROTESTANTISM AND GLEICHSCHALTUNG



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The more extreme Nazis looked to extend the Nazi policy of Gleichschaltung ( Coordination ) to the churches. This policy of coordination aimed to fuse all areas of German life together into a supreme Nazi machine. Anything or anyone that opposed this process was suspect, and a collection of Nazi organizations tried to bring together all aspects of German life under nazi authority.

A series of laws passed by the Nazis after 1933 were designed to destroy the traditions and priveleges of the old German states and create a centralized one-party state. From the mass of new legislation, new power groups debveloped: Labour Front, SS, SD and Gestapo.

The churches were an obvious target, and in April 1933 hard-line Nazis demanded immediaate Gleichschaltung of all Evangelical churches.
The response of the two major denominations in Germany ( Roman Catholic and Protestant) was mixed: some acquiesced Nazi demands, others met the new threat with determined opposition.
Nazi Protestants ( often called "Positive Christians" ) believed that Jesus Christ had been sent to them in the form of Hitler, that God had sanctified the Aryan way of life and that racial mixing was wrong.
With this in mind, "Positive Christians" attempterd to pass a motion that required Aryan origin as a basis for clerical office.

Pastor Martin Neimoller took over leadershipof the Confessional Church and formed a Pastors' Emergency League ( Pfarrbund ) to oppose the [pro-Nazi]hardliners.

Neimoller was an ex-World War I submarine captain, awarded the Pour le Merite decoration, who subsequently studied theology and was ordained in 1924.
Some 7000 pastors joined Neimoller's opposition, but Nazi persecution decimated their ranks.
Meanwhile, "Positive Christians" attacked the Old Testament and those parts of the New Testament considered tainted by Judaism.
The policies of the "Positive Christians" were heavily criticized by many in the Protestant Churches. And were attacked by those such as Neimoller.
In the end, The Nazis' attempts at Gleichschaltung for Protestantism failed.
But this did not stop the Nazis from persecuting religious opponents, including Neimoller, who was imprisoned in 1937, and subsequently sent to a concentration camp.

When the Protestant Churches went on record in 1935 to say that the entire Nazi racial folk Weltanschaung was nonsense, 700 ministers were arrested, humiliated, and their civil liberties restricted.

Ultimately, while the Nazis failed to absorb these churches, by the late 1930's the policies of repression had effectively stifled open opposition within the Protestant movement.



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THE CATHOLIC CHURCH



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The Catholic Church represented more formidable opposition for the Nazis.

The Catholics had two advantages over the Protestants:
1) theirs was a truly international faith, under the central leadership of the Vatican:
2) Catholics had a political party in Germany, the Centre Party, to represent their interests.

The Catholic Church hoped to use its political influence to deflect Nazi interference in Church matters.

Therefore, the Centre Party supported the Enabling Law of 1933 ( a sweeping measure to enable the Nazi gobvernment to make laws without the approval of the [legislative] Reichstag ) that formed the constitutional basis of Nazi rule, in the hope that this support would paay dividends in the Nazi policy toward Catholics.

Hitler was careful not to antagonize the Catholic Church, and his conciliatory phrases lulled them into a false sense of security.

It was also the case that most German Catholics ( and Protestants) were indifferent to the all-embracing Nazi ideology that made complete claim on all Germans, and they failed to see its potential to threaten the established religions.

By 1936, the Catholic Church was making official representations to Hitler about Nazi interference in its affairs.
When Cardinal Faulhaber, the Church's representative, complained about new laws for sterilization of those with genetic diseases, Hitler lost his temper and told the Cardinal not to interfere.
Five months after Faulhaber's encopunter with the Fuhrer, Pope Pius XI issued an extraordinary encyclical entitled With Deep Anxiety that condemned Nazi attacks on the Church. The Pope reminded Hitler that man as a human being possessed rights that must be preserved against every attempt by the community to deny, suppress or hinder them.

This encyclical was read from the pulpit in all of Germany's Catholic churches.

The Nazis responded by making attacks on priests, monks, and nuns in the state-controlled press, and then arresting and charging a number of them on trumped-up accusations of financial and sexual impropriety.
Gobbels, himself a former Catholic, orchestrated these attacks and sent hundreds of nuns and priests to the concentration camps.

In the end, both Christian Churches [Protestant and Catholic] failed to understand the threat the Nazis represented. While many individual clergy acted heroically, the Churches as organized bodies did little to impede the Nazi takeover of Germany; their response was to issue feeble objections rather than organize mass protest.
The Churches (and all Germans) would have done well to heed the famous comment by Paster Neimoller:

First the Nazis went after the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did not object. Then they went after the Catholics, but I wasn't a Catholic, so I did not object. Then they went for the trade unionists, but I was not a trade-unionist so I did not object. Then they came after me, and by then there was no one left to object."



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r3x29yz4a said:

Hitler was actually raised in a Catholic home. So, while later on in life his views towards the Church changed, it can still be argued that his moral foundation was developed in a Catholic society.
As of this writing (7/16/05) no person raised in a secular society has caused 12 million deaths.

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Wonder Boy said:

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r3x said:

Hitler was actually raised in a Catholic home. So, while later on in life his views towards the Church changed, it can still be argued that his moral foundation was developed in a Catholic society.
As of this writing (7/16/05) no person raised in a secular society has caused 12 million deaths.

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In other words, no matter what evidence is raised that Nazis persecuted Protestants and Catholics, no matter what evidence is raised that thousands of Protestants and Catholics voiced objections to Nazi policy, were jailed, repressed and sent to concentration camps for it, you will insist that Hitler was "Christian" in his actions, or more ambiguously was raised in a "Christian home", whatever the hell that means.

And no matter what evidence that the Nazi leadership, and Hitler himself, wanted to expunge Christianity entirely from German society.
Hitler was a Christian. Sure. You bet.

I fail to see any basis for your labelling Hitler a "Christian".

This "Christian" Hitler at one point attempted to revive pagan worship of the Norse gods, rejected only because it wasn't popular with the german people.
That doesn't sound like a "good Catholic" or Christian of any kind to me.x

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r3x29yz4a said:
I never said he was Christian, just that he was raised in a christian community.
Thus negating Pariah's point (once again) that Christianity is the basis of morality.

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Wonder Boy said:

That's still an unsound argument.
Hitler's actions were not rooted in Christian/Catholic belief.

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Hitler did not in any way promote Catholicism or Christianity.

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His stated purpose, and that of his Nazi party, was to extinguish Christianity.

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He only promoted a paganized pro-Hitler sect of Christianity, as a divide-and-conquer first step on his way toward the complete removal of Christianity from German society.

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There is nothing Biblical or Christian in Hitler's actions. Hitler's actions were blatantly anti-Biblical and anti-Christian.

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So it's polar opposite the truth to say that Hitler somehow represents "Christian morality".

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And it's polar opposite of truth to say Hitler's actions somehow negate the validity of Christian teachings as a basis for morality.

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I never said he was Christian, just that he was raised in a christian community.
Thus negating Pariah's point (once again) that Christianity is the basis of morality.

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Wonder Boy said:

Hitler did not in any way promote Catholicism or Christianity. His stated purpose, and that of his Nazi party, was to extinguish Christianity.

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"Today Christians ... stand at the head of [this country]... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past ... (few) years. [The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872]

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I've used that one here before y'know.

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"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance
with the will of the Almighty Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]

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"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without
the practical existence of a religious belief."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.152]

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"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence
of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill
the mission assigned to it by the Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 125]

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"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his
estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary,
He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]

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"It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but
the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

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"....the personification of the devil as the symbol
of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11,
precisely echoing Martin Luther's teachings]

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"Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable
stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin
the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

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"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for
compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but
in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

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r3x29yz4a said:
Then why do you bother trying so hard to defend him and prove he exists? If I see a ninja being attacked I know he can take care of himself and stay out of it.
Yes, that ninja situation has come up before.

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does it ever say specifically not to? Because if it shows an act that some may find immoral like, I don't know, slavery. And it doesn't condemn that act then it is condoning the act in a roundabout way.

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but you can't do that. You can't reject logic on one hand because it contradicts something in the bible (age of earth) then use logic to support some unspoken biblical rule, especially one as farfetched as that.
Give me one ancient text that mentions genetic.

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Far-fetched?

Maybe you missed the part where I explained to you that it wasn't until around circa 2000 BC that children born of incest were not negatively effected by the union. Obviously this wouldn't be the case today. God specifically forbid it at that time when cross-dominant genetics was at its breaking point in the human biologial structure. It doesn't need to be said in the Bible for us to recognize why those types of unions were forbidden.

And you seemed to have missed every point I made regarding the age of earth. Please review if you feel like actually making a suitable point instead of making a sweeping gesture like a half-wit.

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How does sodomy actually effect society? Or you in general? The people of Soddom and Gamorah weren't a community of gay men that were wiped out, they were a community of sexual perverts. The main sin mentioned by the Angels is the fact that the citizens commit rape.

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how did the world survive even 10,000 of your christian years, or 9,000 years of your Jewish years before we were saved by the mighty Yaweh?

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Ancient Greece is. You remember them? Pesky little pre-judeo christians who created democracy?

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And what about wacky Socrates? Or zany Plato? Those pre-judeo christian guys who were the first philosophers to discuss values and ethics?

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They don't count do they? Why? Because it was Zues instead of Jesus?

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the religion of Zeus (see above point)

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again, I point out the greeks.

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meaning you don't find slavery to be an immoral act that shames a society?

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yes.

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Slavery from ancient times was about using criminals and prisoners of war. Treatment of slaves was also governed by standards, and a good deal of slavery wasn't a lifelong obligation.

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It was only in christian countries where slavery became about imprisoning an entire race for life based on them not being "god's people."

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unprovable stories about supernatural deeds.

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no its accepted by christians. no other religion sees the bible as 100% accurate. and all the government officials that do, are judeo christian (so obviously they'd support it as fact).

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again, christians believe it. we happen to have 98% christian politicians (a good example of morality?) and any one who doesn't believe in the bible would avoid the issue to not alienate voters.

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and if you take into account muslims, jews, hindus, buddhists and all the atheist/agnostics then you have about 4 billion people who either; don't believe in the bible, think its been heavily altered, or think its got some truth and some fiction.

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okay. pay attention now.
if the water was slow rising, then non-ocean faring people probably still would've realized the need to build a boat, and would've learned to do so.

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lies=disagree with pariah?

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being loony=proving pariah's argument to be off-base?

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I don't think you know what an ad hominem is

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by insulting me as your reply you pulled an ad hominem.

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if that were true then why aren't all muslims terrorists?
I know a few very religious muslims. they can be touchy sometimes, but they're non-violent and believe in a peaceful way of life.

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jihad has many meanings. it is mainly a struggle to maintain one's faith and purity of being (hence the Isalmic belief in not eating certain animals and never drinking alcohol).
its been misinterpreted to mean soley an act of violence.

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muslims do believe in defending themselves from invasions. and we have butt ourselves into their countries and fucked them up in many ways.

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and the majority of muslim leaders have denounced terrorism. and the majority of muslims are appalled by the acts of violence.

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if they're trying to shove a flyer in my face, and waking me up with a knock on the door then yes, they are trying to convert me.

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read your above statements. you said their church teaches violence.

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Zion conspiracy?

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I said specifically i didn't hate christians, simply find them the most obnoxious and offending.

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that's not even scientists, that's different sects of christianity and religious scholars.

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and christians can't prove most of the events in the bible. scientists can show some evidence of evolution.

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if there are non-believers you do.

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an all loving god who's love we have to earn?
does that make sense?

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then kill yourself and works out for everyone.

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everyone christian that dies is hellbound?

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the bible says people and a planet just popped into being over a week of hardwork. science and common sense would say it took time for everything to come together and develop.

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the bible's teachings is about as real as the respect you think you have here. (zing)

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if everyone came from the same two people, why don't we all look related (unless people evolved to have different races)?

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and the question was where are the Judeo-christian teachings in those ancient countries?
if we're all from the same two people and the same godly people then the "word of god" would be in all those countries ancient texts.

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despite the fact that there is proof of Africans existing first, and the Chinese developing culture long before Europe.

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thousands of years (even by your own count) after mankind started?

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show me one shred of proof they went to Asia, Africa, and the Americas. Because you said the apostles, not missionaries.

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and if god really wanted them to spread the word to everyone about Christ he would've ensured that first contact with Christ in the Americas would've been something nicer than Conquistadors.

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at the point of a sword/gun?

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he was a member of Hitler's belief system.

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just because what I say on religion contradicts what you believe to be true doesn't make it a lie.

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and as I've already pointed out it was the Morality of Zeus' chosen people.

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what does that prove about dinosaurs starting millions of years before mankind?

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r3x29yz4a said:
I never said he was Christian, just that he was raised in a christian community.
Thus negating Pariah's point (once again) that Christianity is the basis of morality.

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r3x29yz4a said:
So you're saying that religion and religious communities have no bearing on the morals of individuals raised in those communities?
interesting.

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didn't he seek out the grail and the spear of destiny? because those were technically supporting a belief in dogma.

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i would've thought the jews was his first target. homosexuals and blacks second targets.
but i guess i missed all those christians in death camps.

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except for the killing and doing god's work.

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he was raised in a catholic community. if you (well, Pariah) want to attribute morality to religious influence then you have take credit for all morality under catholic rule.

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he sure wasn't raised jewish or muslim, i can say that at least.

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unrestrained id said:

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Wonder Boy said:

Hitler did not in any way promote Catholicism or Christianity. His stated purpose, and that of his Nazi party, was to extinguish Christianity.

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"Today Christians ... stand at the head of [this country]... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past ... (few) years. [The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872]

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I've used that one here before y'know.

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"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance
with the will of the Almighty Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]

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"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without
the practical existence of a religious belief."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.152]

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"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence
of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill
the mission assigned to it by the Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 125]

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"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his
estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary,
He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]

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"It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but
the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

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"....the personification of the devil as the symbol
of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11,
precisely echoing Martin Luther's teachings]

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"Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable
stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin
the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

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"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for
compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but
in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

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and it goes on and on and on......

http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_AHitler.htm

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

http://www.christianseparatist.org/briefs/sb3.13.html

http://www.mtfreethinkers.org/essays_stories/religion/adolph_hitler.htm

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Jim Jackson said:
Yes, they do.

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theory9 said:
Then I said: Catholic and Nazis 1 and Catcholics and Nazis 2 and Catholics and Nazis 3. That's how the fuck I'm gonna assert it. With the fuckin' truth.

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Pariah said:
Christianity was used as his smoke-screen to appeal to the Christian majority. Thus their mentions. Do you really think he was a practicing Christian? By the time of the war, he had forsaken any mentions of Christianity since he'd succeeded in using it to accomplish his War Macht.

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Wonder Boy said:

Hitler did not in any way promote Catholicism or Christianity. His stated purpose, and that of his Nazi party, was to extinguish Christianity.

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Pariah said:
Christianity was used as his smoke-screen to appeal to the Christian majority. Thus their mentions. Do you really think he was a practicing Christian? By the time of the war, he had forsaken any mentions of Christianity since he'd succeeded in using it to accomplish his War Macht.

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Pariah said:
Page 2 dumbass.

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You call that "evidence", Mr. Straw-Man?

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theory9 said:

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Pariah said:
Page 2 dumbass.

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You call that "evidence", Mr. Straw-Man?

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Pariah said:
Page 2 dumbass.

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Pariah said:
Theory. Why are you so full of hate? Don't you see it only hurts your character?

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Pariah said:
That all depends on whether or not he's winning or losing the fight.

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At that time, there was an abundance of indentured servants. Most of the slaves mentioned in the Bible were indentured. Meaning they could be treated in whatever way their masters wanted for a full decade for the sake of shelter and getting paid at the end.

As far as true owning of a person goes (which involves indentured servants as well: You’re taking things out of context. Much of the scripture in the Bible involving slavery pertains to a world where slavery is on par with our current expectations of work force. You’re stuck in the 17-1800s where slaves were treated unequally based more on race than class.

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Far-fetched?

Maybe you missed the part where I explained to you that it wasn't until around circa 2000 BC that children born of incest were not negatively effected by the union. Obviously this wouldn't be the case today. God specifically forbid it at that time when cross-dominant genetics was at its breaking point in the human biologial structure. It doesn't need to be said in the Bible for us to recognize why those types of unions were forbidden.

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It walked hand in hand. There wasn't just rape going on but mass amounts of consensual anal sex, and that was forbidden. To say that fact didn't play a role is gross ignorance. Both are abominations.

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Noe was saved and his family was able to start . Duh.

First of all, Jerusalem is not considered by anyone to be the cradle of civilization.

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Rome created democracy....

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Why the hell do you think they were wacky?

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Anyway, the funny part about that statement is that you left out that they were the first philosophers to conclude that there is a God. Singular.

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Plato's Republic was indeed very successful, having principles in kind with the Old Testament, however, their ethics stopped to a point (that slavery you were talking about to name one thing). Moreover they didn't play as active a role as establishing morals to the majority of society, which was my point in the case of the Christianity/Judaism. "Morals" aren't exactly the same as being "ethical". They're both ground in logic, however one's particular to being fair whilst the other is focused on doing things for a greater good.

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You are one of the most ignorant dipshit's I've ever encountered. Plato and Socrates were not poly-theists.

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Your opinion (see above to realize stupidity).

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Again, I point out there’s a difference between ethics and morals. One’s practiced solely for the sake of the society, one’s practiced for the sake of the people in particular, whether they be individual or amassed. True morals wouldn’t play favorites.

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I’m sure you’d like to think that so you can further your abject blind hatred of Christians and Christianity.

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You can’t do that. Simply because most of the society was Christian doesn’t indicate Christianity as amoral when it was a secular law. Using that reasoning, I could say it was Christianity who ended slavery since Abe Lincoln was Christian…..Actually, that’s technically

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This isn’t true at all, and moreover, it doesn’t make slavery any better in their.

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Uh, yeah, you got a link proving that all slavery has been race and/or Christian-based?

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Wall of Jericho = Proven

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Deluge specifically described within Bible = Proven

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Sodom and Gommorah = Proven

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Resurrection = Proven

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Wrong. The Bible has indisputably been shown to be accurate. Secularists may not want to accept its accuracy, but that’s irrelevant in the face of its secularly admitted historical value. If it’s brought into a conversation, it must be taken seriously sense it’s officially accepted as a historical document. Insisting that you don’t believe it and giving a rough estimate of others who don’t doesn’t mean it’s not true history. It just means you have your fingers in your ears whilst saying, “Christians suck!” over and over again.

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All of those points have been disproven and/or presented with no evidence, meaning that’s their personal bias and not a true indicator of Biblical accuracy.

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If it was raining gregariously all over the world, water would be building up way to fast for anyone to build anything.

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Furthermore, even if they did have a decent amount of time, it’s already been pointed out that these people weren’t boat makers.

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Even if they were able to make one properly, it wouldn’t have lasted in the water.

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Nope. You lie about everything. Are you denying that more than half the information you quote to make your cases is either off-base, half-truth, or full on not true? If so, there’s a prolly a dozen posters here who’ll disagree. In most of the arguments you’ve had on these boards, people have had to correct your “knowledge” on whatever subject you were arguing.

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No offense to Rob. But I don't really think of these boards as anything but casual conversation. This whole thread is just a fun little debate when I'm bored.

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Your implication was ad hominem, not the phrase itself. Dumbass. You know for a fact Catholicism isn’t “about” slavery, but you just go on trying to push people’s buttons.

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I never said it was about slavery, just that it turned a blind eye to it.
And I still don't think you know what an ad hominem is. Please, look it up. dictionary.com is a great site.

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Indeed I did, but I don’t whore it as much as you do.

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I'm a whore now? please explain the logic behind that. or is this one of those times where you don't have logic, just faith in my being a whore?

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It simply means they deny a part of their doctrine. It doesn’t mean it’s not in their doctrine.

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wait. clarify that.
you think the terrorists deny their doctrine or that the peaceful muslims deny their doctrine?

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Considering a “jihad” has been used for nothing but violence since its conception, and that it’s patently considered as inherently violent by its followers, I find it’s “true meaning”, as described by you, to be irrelevant.

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have you ever known a muslim? they will describe daily life as a "jihad" to maintain purity. A struggle to maintain the strict diet and teetotaler standards, and to maintain their cycle of daily prayers.
In their religion they must pray for a certain length at different times throughout the day.
That is a jihad.

If a foreign army invades their land, they are required to fight them and defend their home and family and religion.

The terrorist Jihad is a perversion on one hand and an interpretation of our actions as an invasion.

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More than that, the Muslims are “struggling” to maintain their faith and purity as they think that it’s been tainted by Americans. So there you have it. Also, I don’t think I can trust your definition.

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if you don't trust me, then look it up. That's what I do with your "facts."
go to the library or save time and check out wikipedia.org (a damn good site by the way).

And Muslims in America are living in a land that violates some of their purity standards. But the "jihad" of that is to abstain from beer at a ballgame, to keep their diet free of pork and whatnot at restaurants.
to schedule in their prayer ritual.

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So you’re saying that Osama Bin Laden was justified in bombing us?

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I think he had his reasons, I think we (the CIA) put the gun in his hands.
I'll never agree with the murder of any person for revenge purposes or misguided senses of justice.

I think the money and influence he used for 9/11 would've worked out better by building political and public support for his views. He could've waged a public campaign to discredit Bush and his cronies that would've had him coming out looking better and his enemy looking worse (same with every terrorist act, violence begets violence).

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So think the insurgents are right in killing hundreds of innocents in Iraq even after the war is over?

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I do not believe a civilized country invades another on what if theories.
I do not believe intelligent leaders invade a country they do not intend to conquer without an exit strategy.
I believe people will fight for their homeland when it is threatened or invaded.

Bush and his people are squarely to blame for the current deaths in Iraq. Due to piss poor planning and a focus on oil money over human life.

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However, they cannot deny the existence of “Jihad” within their doctrine.

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see above.
I ask again, do you know anyone of the Islamic faith or are you basing this information on some "analysis of Islam" you read on Anne Coulter's website?

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Uh, yeah, that’s not forcing. It’s being obnoxious, not a type of attrition.

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tomato tomatoe

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And thus you’ve come to hate them and are now leading your own crusade against them through insulting them at any which point you get the opportunity.

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no, I don't hate christians as a whole.
again, this is a debate on religion. so obviously i'm going to debate religion on this thread. show me any other thread where you, sammich, or wbam posted on that had nothing to do with religion where i started critiquing your beliefs.

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I’m not sure the Protestants actually accused Catholics of actually editing the Bible, so much as embellishing its contents during the middle-ages. After that, all I can say is all arguments as to editing of the Bible have fallen flat. So far, the main conflict is interpretation. Not accuracy.

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how can something that's 100% accurate be open for interpretation?

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Link me to this “evidence”.

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you never went to a museum as a child?
they're kind of fun, you should try one out.

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The point was to not have have any non-believers. I will say that past governship of Christianity has led to an abundance of these non-believers through corruption, and that gives me ire, but I don’t find that to be a very good excuse on the part of secularists. Actually observing the philosophy rather than condemn it through its past falletical uses, as people so love to point out, would be more logical.

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my problem with christian beliefs comes not from the "love thy neighbor" aspect but more the "no way to my father but through me" aspect.
I outright refuse to believe any religion that says you're condemned simply for not believing.
And argue that point all you want but you know as well as I that a person isn't "saved" by being good, they're "saved" by believing in christ.

i also find it ridiculous that the christians don't even use a correct image or pronunciation of their saviors name.
they use an english translation of a greek word, and a white washed middle ages redesign.

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No. Those people are Christians—The ones you mentioned—But it’s not because they’re Christians that they’re saved. I expressed in the same sentence that they have to be good.

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explain your definition of the word "saved."

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Science and common sense have already proven past happenings, as construed in the book from which people are taught that the world and Man was created in a week, as being true historical events.

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created from dust and a rib? then why was it so hard to map the human genome?

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I posed the question:
if everyone came from the same two people, why don't we all look related (unless people evolved to have different races)?

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Poopy Pants huffed and puffed and cried out:
This has gotta be one of the more idiotic things I’ve heard you say. You obviously know nothing about the laws of heredity and exterior genetic mutations based on environment (not to be confused with true evolution).

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The Torah was being steadily built in the millennia BC, so complete Judaism/Christian teachings weren’t around yet. It was shown in the Old Testament that God corrected people when they did things wrong or stopped them before they did something wrong and expressed what it was and why it was wrong. God openly spoke with the first few generations of man and thus they passed on the teachings of the first parts of Genesis and, whatever else God told them, to their children.

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I'll ask again. Outside of the Bible/Torrah where are the records of the Judeo-Christian god in other cultures?
If its the one true god then it should be referenced elsewhere.

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Let’s see the proof. If you’re using MJ’s China example, don’t bother, that one’s long sense been debunked.

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how about all those bones they found in Africa.
or the artifacts in china that predate many western civilizations.

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….And before Christ, God spoke to the people about what’s right and wrong.

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like a "rap session?"
I can dig that.

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They went to Asia for sure. I’m not sure about Africa. Anyway, they didn’t go to America. The point was that Europe and the Middle East became the epitomes of Christianity and were used to spread the word. Furthermore, speed isn’t the issue here. It doesn’t matter how long it took before Christianity got to other countries so long as it got there.

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wouldn't it matter to the people who weren't saved and went to hell?
and why have christ be born then? if god was smart he'd have christ be born today so all the miracles could be televised.

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No he wouldn’t. The teachings make it clear that it’s up to us to follow his rules. It’s the fault of those Conquistadors. Not God.

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but who created the conquistadors?

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No. He was within their society. That doesn’t mean he retained their beliefs.

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did he wear a swastika on his arm as Jews were put in ovens?

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No. You lie about shit. Lots.

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no, I don't.

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It has to do with disproving it. It’s awfully strange that a creature who was purportedly alive only millions of years ago was sighted alive during the time of Noah.

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I'm a big believer in cryptozoology.

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Do me the favor: Stop being a fuckwit.

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that's a textbook ad hominem.

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I said Christianity/Judaism were first to established morality in culture. Period. I didn't say anything about it's influence succeeding over violence/hatred all the time.

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and we've already proven that it was a very non-judeo christian culture that first had discussions of value systems and morality.
and Hitler's anti-semetic views were picked up by the culture he came from.

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Hitler's motivations weren't Chrisitian. Nor were they based on Christianity. Period.

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someone above posted Hitler's various pro-Christian remarks.

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Pau Pot was raised secular. I guess that means secularity inspires mass genocide.

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yes. yes it does.