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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
i hope this doesnt make you think im gay.
well, you do sport advertising for a Gay mod.
or maybe you're just gay for pay.
Bow ties are coool.
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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
i hope this doesnt make you think im gay.
No doubt about it. You're a bone smoker. Come over here and rest your head in my lap! 
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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magicjay38 said:
Okay, Pariah. My position is Marxist. Religion is an institution used by the oppressors of the proletariate as an instrument of social control. Institutional Christianity in particular is is complicite in this oppression. Jealous of the power of their superiors, the Imperial Roman Government, they created a priestly cast. Priests became useful to the empire by bending their slave followers to the interests of the empire. Just as it does today. The institution serves keep people resigned to a life of quiet desperation.
What does Scripture or whoever have to say to rebut that position?
Anyone have an alternate version of reality? Or am I right?
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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r3x29yz4a said:
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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
i hope this doesnt make you think im gay.
well, you do sport advertising for a Gay mod.
or maybe you're just gay for pay.
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The Bible began as an oral tradition, not being written down until roughly 60 years after the death of Christ. Even acknowledging that oral traditions were more accurate and reliable than in the modern age of computers and short attention spans, it is reasonable to assume that parts of the Bible were inadvertantly changed as it is passed down to the generations.
That's just not true. I don't mean this as an attempt to dismiss your points, but frankly there are statements here that demonstrate a lack of knowledge as to the contruction of the new testement. First It wasn't strictly an oral tradition. Much of the new testement was written. 3 of the gospels for instance use a sourse document for comparrison. This document is known by scholors as "Q", but that's another topic for another time. second the "oral tradidition wasn't passed down from generations. ^0 years encompases a single generation. Much of the New Testement was written by eye whitneses. To say that some things were lost by passing it down through generations ignores this crucial point. Infact one of the criteria for cannonization was that the books included be written by those present at the time who had a first hand experience with Christ.
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There is also considerable allegorical evidence that the Bible is a "final draft" of sorts, framed by the writers to make the best impression. We see this in the suppression of the Dead Sea Scrolls by the Vatican, and many scholars believe that the origins of many passages in the Bible are linked to the ancient tribe of the Essenses (sp?).
There are few schollors who believe this about the tribe of Essenses. Few of the Scholors of the Jesus Seminares aren't acctually schollars by the official use of the term. The Dead sea scrollls weren't supressed either (The Davinchi Code is a work of FICTION) The dead sea scrolls are available for anyone who wishes to read them. The were however dismissed as forgeries made by the Gnostics. Before insisting that these should be included in Scripture should acctually read them. The ideas included were obvious Gnostic propoganda. There's a level of Mysogeny that flys in the face of The true Scriptures. The Gnostics were known before the time of Christ for thier habit of creating forgeries and attributing them to well known philosophers. A basic understanding of the history makes it clear as to why they were so easily dismissed at the time.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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BSAMS:
You absolutely are attacking people whose beliefs differ from yours.
I've never cared whether a person has faith or not--except when that faith is forced upon me. Say what you will about science, but America was purposely founded as a secularist state precisely so that those indifferent/resistant to other religious beliefs could live in peace.
I'll say this: it sounds like the ultimate difference betwwen us is which "book" (or path) each person chooses to believe. For my part, I have tried to steer away from the "my side is right, yours is wrong" type of posts that bog down the message boards. If you say there's no way to scientifically measure the distance between celestial bodies, then I'll spend no more of my time arguing the contrary point.
Something to consider, however, is that science is not "disproven" in the sense that it is something that evolves through the acquisition of knoweledge and the presentation of new ideas. Just as the earth was once flat and the center of the universe, our understanding of the universe continues to progress.
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except when that faith is forced upon me.
This phrase has alwayse bugged me. In what manner do you feel religion is forced on you? Are people dragging you into church or making you pray by gun point?
I mean I hear religious ideas all teh time and see various religious imagry everywhere I go, but it doesn't force me to believe in anything. I've heard everthing from preaching to sharing the gospel to displaying a devotional calander as "forcing" religion on people. I just don't get it.
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I was referring to the Bible as a whole, and the fact (from various readings of mine) that some of the Bible is the result of an oral tradition. If you would care to point me in the direction of books that discuss this part of Biblical history, I'd be happy to check them out (i.e. a library or decent online sources).
I also believe canonization involves someone after the fact investigating scriptures and saints and the like. Again, if I'm mistaken, please show me some texts/links.
I never brought up the DaVinci Code, and I've never read it nor know much of anything about it. Publications like BAR (Biblical Archaeology Review) that were given to me in the mid-90's by a friend became intensely fascinating in a subject I knew nothing about. The questions raised within those publications still loom large over the entire issue of the Dead Sea Scrolls, as very few scholars outside of the Vatican's influence/control have ever been allowed to look at them. Over 90% of the original DSS still remain unavailable to the public.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
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except when that faith is forced upon me.
This phrase has always bugged me. In what manner do you feel religion is forced on you? Are people dragging you into church or making you pray by gun point?
I'll explain it as best I can: I have never walked up to a person and asked them if they don't believe in God. I've never presented my views on issues that affect us all by prefacing that the "Christian way" is the best way to go.
People who believe in God often seem compelled to coerce/influence people to believe what they do, often with costs. When someone decries that lack of prayer in schools is somehow responsible for the decline of modern society, they ignore a host of other issues and shun personal responsibility. They lack the simple respect of respecting other people's view.
(READ THIS: I am not saying that all people of religion do this. GO BACK AND REREAD PREVIOUS SENTENCE. I wouldn't even say a majority. But when people step out of line and do this, the response is to ignore offensive behavior. Similarly, people that go to extremes to remove the Pledge of Allegience from public schools strike me as equally wrong-headed. I have a lot of friends who believe different things, and what makes for a great friendship with each and every one of them is the ability to discuss our beliefs without trying to change them.)
People should believe what they want. People should present whatever it is they believe in a respectful manner. I just don't think this happens often enough.
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theory9 said:
Science offers a variety of tools-mathematics, physics, and chemistry are a few-that allow us to measure and evaluate the world around us (these tools also predate the Bible). One can discover, through observation and interaction, the laws of the universe; these laws are not immutable and limited by our understanding, but do offer a fairly consistent view of the world. The attraction between masses, the distance to the sun and other planets, and their relation to each other can also be evaluated and proven by conducting experiments in a lab (or even in one's backyard).
And you seem to be of the mind that none of this applies to discovering any truth within the accounts of the Bible--And they do.
Why exactly do you feel that science is something more than analysis? It doesn't create facts, it discovers them. And what you continually avoid is the fact that, by scientific analysis, many Biblical accounts have been proved true.
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it is reasonable to assume that parts of the Bible were inadvertantly changed as it is passed down to the generations.
Reasonable based on what? How old it is? If that's the case, most secular history books are called to question as well.
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We see this in the suppression of the Dead Sea Scrolls by the Vatican, and many scholars believe that the origins of many passages in the Bible are linked to the ancient tribe of the Essenses (sp?).
Suppression? In other words, "Absence of proof is proof of absence". Can you base this "Vatican edits" on more than mere non-disclosure?
And what exactly creates a link between passages in the Bible and that tribe you mentioned?
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God is a matter of faith, and everyone is welcome to it, but I would have to share your faith for any argument to work.
You say this whilst you, yourself, have created your own faith.
As I said before, even if you choose to discount the presence of God within the Bible, that does not make the scripture itself illogical. If you want to truly act intelligent, than you'd argue the logic behind the philosophy and not the author of the book.
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Nothing is logical about the existence of God, and a logical argument where no premises are granted would find God to be a short subject.
What makes the existence of God illogical?
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r3x29yz4a said:
science is also constantly being updated, you're not allowed to update or even question the bible.
This, in and of itself, does not make science correct--Nor does it make Christianity wrong.
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r3x29yz4a said:
please tell me one aspect of the bible that you disagree with.
I don't disagree with any of its message.
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What does Scripture have to say to rebut that position?
Pretty much everything. You just threw out a bunch of unfounded accusations based on the assumption that every single religious hierarchy in the past was corrupt...Big deal. It's the same knee-jerk you always use.
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Quote:
theory9 said:
BSAMS:
You absolutely are attacking people whose beliefs differ from yours.
I've never cared whether a person has faith or not--except when that faith is forced upon me. Say what you will about science, but America was purposely founded as a secularist state precisely so that those indifferent/resistant to other religious beliefs could live in peace.
I'll say this: it sounds like the ultimate difference betwwen us is which "book" (or path) each person chooses to believe. For my part, I have tried to steer away from the "my side is right, yours is wrong" type of posts that bog down the message boards. If you say there's no way to scientifically measure the distance between celestial bodies, then I'll spend no more of my time arguing the contrary point.
Something to consider, however, is that science is not "disproven" in the sense that it is something that evolves through the acquisition of knoweledge and the presentation of new ideas. Just as the earth was once flat and the center of the universe, our understanding of the universe continues to progress.
theo i believe you may have gone nuts. you'll have to point out were i attacked anyone? i never insulted you, just stated as you have repeated here you believe science to be absolute which proves you have faith in it. the same as others do in the bible or koran i've never said anything bad about you or anyone else who believes that how is that attack. seriously? you sound like some of the people on here whose religious faith is questioned they consider it a attack. you say science is about questioning absolutes and all i did is question wether it is absolute. seems kinda funky to me that youd take offense to that. also the fact that you say you dont like religion forced upon you yet if you consider discussion of it forced then do you consider discussion of scinece forced upon those who do not agree on it?
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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
agreed jim, they are both belief systems!
But one is a belief system that relies on actual evidence on this plane of existence.
The other does not.
Does this give one belief system superiority over the other? Well, I certainly think science offers us our best way for knowledge because its reliance on empirical scrutiny.
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I like it when BSAMS uses people's own logic against them. It's funny.
But, back on the topic of this thread, I do think religion does help society. Religious beliefs established morales and ethics for all cultures (whether they were Jewsish, Christian, Islam, or not). Many religions also focus on the betterment of man himself. While maybe not pushing all followers to become stinkin' rich, most do promote a way to interact with one another to the betterment of the whole and not the individual (how can Marx argue against that?). Religon can be corrupted and used to oppress and subjegate, but so can any other system that man gets his hands on (hello communism!).
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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thedoctor said:
Religon can be corrupted and used to oppress and subjegate, but so can any other system that man gets his hands on (hello communism!).
So what you're saying is that faith is good, religion is bad.
I can dig that.
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Faith = Good
Religion = Good
Organized Religion with Centralized Bureaucracy = Fucked Up Bad
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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*sigh*
I have never stated that science is an absolute. On the contrary, I have stated over and over again that science is an evolving, incomplete process in which we continually learn new things about the universe. Faith is a belief in something in the absence of logical proof or material evidence, which I believe separates religion from science.
I have no problem with people questioning the basis for my beliefs--I think it can make for intelligent conversation where people evaluate the things they believe. But when people say things like there's no way to measure distances between celestial bodies and the like--when modern living (meteorology and the like) goes against such a statement--is, quite frankly, boring.
I never said this discussion (i.e. religion) was forced. Ever. So obviously, the flipside would be true. But you how us "nuts" do...
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faith - Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. Let me ask you a question that I believe gets to the heart of BSAMS's argument. When was the last time you measured the distance between the Earth and the sun?
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
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thedoctor said:
Religon can be corrupted and used to oppress and subjegate, but so can any other system that man gets his hands on (hello communism!).
So what you're saying is that faith is good, religion is bad.
I can dig that.
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
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I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
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To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
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thedoctor said:
I like it when BSAMS uses people's own logic against them. It's funny.
But, back on the topic of this thread, I do think religion does help society. Religious beliefs established morales and ethics for all cultures (whether they were Jewsish, Christian, Islam, or not). Many religions also focus on the betterment of man himself. While maybe not pushing all followers to become stinkin' rich, most do promote a way to interact with one another to the betterment of the whole and not the individual (how can Marx argue against that?). Religon can be corrupted and used to oppress and subjegate, but so can any other system that man gets his hands on (hello communism!).
Religion or faith are not without benefits. They have been a positive influence to many people. But do these benefits outweigh the costs that their institutional structures impose on society? I think not. It teaches people passivity, rather than taking an active role in pursuing their own best interests. You don't have to be a Communist to believe that.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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magicjay38 said:
It teaches people passivity, rather than taking an active role in pursuing their own best interests. You don't have to be a Communist to believe that.
I think you're confusing passivity with pacifism. Many religions do teach the practitioners to stand up and make changes, though maybe not through the use of violence.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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thedoctor said:
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magicjay38 said:
It teaches people passivity, rather than taking an active role in pursuing their own best interests. You don't have to be a Communist to believe that.
I think you're confusing passivity with pacifism. Many religions do teach the practitioners to stand up and make changes, though maybe not through the use of violence.
I was really thinking about the Catholic Church in Latin America. The Vatican initially supported Liberation Theology, which advocated for the rights of the poor. When the Polish Pope came along he did his best to squash such silly notions.
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thedoctor said:
Faith = Good
Religion = Good
Organized Religion with Centralized Bureaucracy = Fucked Up Bad
I'm afraid I can't go with you on that one, Doc. Sorry, man. I've had my fair share of negative experiences with my particular denomination, but all in all I would say that there have been more than enough redeeming values to it. That may or may not apply to other Christian denominations or to other religions, but I personally believe that my beliefs, which I arrived at on my own, combined with the support and encouragement I received from my particular denomination, have made me a better person.
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Captain Sammitch said:
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thedoctor said:
Faith = Good
Religion = Good
Organized Religion with Centralized Bureaucracy = Fucked Up Bad
I'm afraid I can't go with you on that one, Doc. Sorry, man. I've had my fair share of negative experiences with my particular denomination, but all in all I would say that there have been more than enough redeeming values to it. That may or may not apply to other Christian denominations or to other religions, but I personally believe that my beliefs, which I arrived at on my own, combined with the support and encouragement I received from my particular denomination, have made me a better person.
I'm with you. I find that teh denominational structure can curb alot of the abuses found in the non denominational Mega church corporations that plaugue TBN and the like or destructured denominations like the Southern Baptists. Sure there are some denominations with strange ideas, but at least you know what they believe and can expect continuity throughout the denomination so you know what to expect. Denominations aren't perfect, but it sure beats being blown by every wind of doctrine to blow by.
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
faith - Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Let me ask you a question that I believe gets to the heart of BSAMS's argument.
When was the last time you measured the distance between the Earth and the sun?
Faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
I've never personally measured the distance between the earth and the sun. Now that I've answered your question, what are you trying to prove?
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I think what Doc is saying is what I was saying. You are basing it on faith in formulas. Just as you said earlier Science is constantly changing so while today you believe it to be fact that the sun is x-miles from earth by science tomorrow it may be z-miles, or even none they may decide that they believe it to be a illusion. Just as everyone here has said. Science is based upon facts, but the facts keep changing. Therefore it is faith that they are right. Schools teach science as absolute and the majority of people decide that that is the truth. Just like my Man on The Moon point in one of these threads. People in general believe this while not actually having been there. This is based on faith. Scientific formulas are the Bible to those who believe. They are passed down from men to other men. No one can prove to me that the sun is x-miles away, yet they will say it can be proved through experiments. If it is REALLY proven then how is it disproven in ten or twelve years? This is the gist of my problem in saying science isnt a religion. If something is truly proven as a fact it cannot change later. If it did change then it shows it was never actually proven in the first place.
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You're also taking it on faith that the Scientists are telling you the truth wich somethimes they aren't Or moreso that the scientists finding are being honestly communicated to you. I've heard time and time again that "scientists believe this" when the theory had long since been abandoned.
What seems more rational to put faith in a series of facts that are inconsistant somethimes contradictory and alwayse changing. Or putting your faith in facts that have remained unchanged since the dawn of time.
There's a secret in that above statement.... see if anyone cathces it.
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
I think what Doc is saying is what I was saying. You are basing it on faith in formulas. Just as you said earlier Science is constantly changing so while today you believe it to be fact that the sun is x-miles from earth by science tomorrow it may be z-miles, or even none they may decide that they believe it to be a illusion. Just as everyone here has said. Science is based upon facts, but the facts keep changing. Therefore it is faith that they are right. Schools teach science as absolute and the majority of people decide that that is the truth. Just like my Man on The Moon point in one of these threads. People in general believe this while not actually having been there. This is based on faith. Scientific formulas are the Bible to those who believe. They are passed down from men to other men. No one can prove to me that the sun is x-miles away, yet they will say it can be proved through experiments. If it is REALLY proven then how is it disproven in ten or twelve years? This is the gist of my problem in saying science isnt a religion. If something is truly proven as a fact it cannot change later. If it did change then it shows it was never actually proven in the first place.
This makes no sense
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I guess my question would be how faith is different from this BSAMS and WBAM--how does one pick faith in one as opposed to the other, and become so certain that their path is correct?
Or to word it differently, how do you say that faith in one is wrong while the other is right?
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How can we say for certain that the two are mutually exclusive?
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
When was the last time you measured the distance between the Earth and the sun?
When you log on to the Internet, do you do so by prayer?
How about when you drive your car? Do you pray for internal combustion?
Those technological advances were driven by science, not by religion.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
When was the last time you measured the distance between the Earth and the sun?
When you log on to the Internet, do you do so by prayer?
How about when you drive your car? Do you pray for internal combustion?
Those technological advances were driven by science, not by religion.
These little marvels we sit in front of and type are wonders of science. The science of physics as well as mathematics get a lot of the credit. Quote me a page of religious text that describes the binomial theorem or explains the properties of energy. Just a couple of things you need to understand before you start building a computer. I used to dream that I was inside an endless matrix of 1s and Os, optic green and floating in blackness....
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
When was the last time you measured the distance between the Earth and the sun?
When you log on to the Internet, do you do so by prayer?
How about when you drive your car? Do you pray for internal combustion?
Those technological advances were driven by science, not by religion.
I was at my local supermarket about an hour ago getting some wrapping paper for a gift and happened to pay attention to the piped in muzak and the little ads they play with them. One ad was in regards to this machine that you dump your loose change in for money. The ad said something to the effect of 'you drop in your coins and it magically turns your change into cash'. It really irked the hell out of me. A fucking machine that changes your coins isn't supernatural!
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
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Quote:
unrestrained id said:
I was at my local supermarket about an hour ago getting some wrapping paper for a gift and happened to pay attention to the piped in muzak and the little ads they play with them. One ad was in regards to this machine that you dump your loose change in for money. The ad said something to the effect of 'you drop in your coins and it magically turns your change into cash'. It really irked the hell out of me. A fucking machine that changes your coins isn't supernatural!
I don't want to get all witchy here, but Magick isn't supernatural either. It involves applying your will to natural forces that already exist.
And then there's the fun kind that you see in night clubs and circuses, which are really slights of hand and they're fun!
Then the commercial language you describe, and that's just shorthand for the process happens quickly and out of view. So don't get yer knickers in a knot over it!
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
How can we say for certain that the two are mutually exclusive?
The way the conversation was going--i.e. the questioning of science and whatnot--that seemed to be the conclusion.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
When was the last time you measured the distance between the Earth and the sun?
When you log on to the Internet, do you do so by prayer?
How about when you drive your car? Do you pray for internal combustion?
Those technological advances were driven by science, not by religion.
Whereas such technology as the reproductive system and the eyeball wich are far more advanced in thier complexity were driven by God not by man.
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Or to word it differently, how do you say that faith in one is wrong while the other is right?
It's a misnomer that God exisists on a seperate plane from science. There are very few sciences that dismiss God (because technically to do so would be unscientific) But there are those who insist that science trumps all that that we should ignore religion on matters of fact and look to it only for comfort if at all. This is the particular view of "science" that is in itself a religion, but infact it's not true science.
If you came into a room with a broken vase and a 800 pound gorrilla how scientific would it be to say "How did this vase breke assumeing the gorilla wasn't involved?" The same is to be said for any "scientist" who asks "How does the world work assuming there is no God?"
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
When was the last time you measured the distance between the Earth and the sun?
When you log on to the Internet, do you do so by prayer?
How about when you drive your car? Do you pray for internal combustion?
Those technological advances were driven by science, not by religion.
These little marvels we sit in front of and type are wonders of science. The science of physics as well as mathematics get a lot of the credit. Quote me a page of religious text that describes the binomial theorem or explains the properties of energy. Just a couple of things you need to understand before you start building a computer. I used to dream that I was inside an endless matrix of 1s and Os, optic green and floating in blackness....
So now we dismiss Scripture because it doesn't contain instructions on how to build a computer
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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Quote:
unrestrained id said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
When was the last time you measured the distance between the Earth and the sun?
When you log on to the Internet, do you do so by prayer?
How about when you drive your car? Do you pray for internal combustion?
Those technological advances were driven by science, not by religion.
I was at my local supermarket about an hour ago getting some wrapping paper for a gift and happened to pay attention to the piped in muzak and the little ads they play with them. One ad was in regards to this machine that you dump your loose change in for money. The ad said something to the effect of 'you drop in your coins and it magically turns your change into cash'. It really irked the hell out of me. A fucking machine that changes your coins isn't supernatural!
That rhetorical devise pissed you off? Wow and to think some say you're humorless. Just so you know I think the ad was taking some creative license. I don't believe the narrator acctually believed that there were spiritual principalities at work in the Coinstar machine.
I'll bet you rage at the weatherman every time he claims what time the sun sets then what time it will rise again. I can picture you screaming at the TV about how the sun neither rises or sets, but that we revolve around the sun and demanding to know why the weatherman has dismissed the Compernican revolution.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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I figured that's what someone would say. The whole point is that science is, presumably (and I believe to be so), based on demonstrable, material evidence, whereas Scripture is Scripture. I have asked previous for material proof of God and was rebuffed (by you, and politely).
So we return to the same question, and I receive the expected answer--which I believe leaves the notion of exclusivity a viable one.
Regarding the vase analogy, why would someone have cause to assume otherwise?
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Quote:
Regarding the vase analogy, why would someone have cause to assume otherwise?
When you enter a room where there is an 800 pound gorrilla and a broken vase you don't know what broke the vase. It could have been broken prior to the arrival of the gorrila, but to rule out the gorrilla would be foolish and unscientific. Just as viewing a series of infinately complex forms and given that out of nothing comes nothing to dismiss even the possibility that there is an intellegence beyond ours. It seems odd that when we of faith say that we belive in teh Scriptures it's assumed we don't believe in science. We simply don't believe that science has all the answers. Science can describe energy, how it fuctions and how to predict it's responses, but can science tell us why we care what energy does?
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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The whole point is that science is, presumably (and I believe to be so), based on demonstrable, material evidence,
This is true. Wich is why when MJ says we rely on Science for teh making of computers and Jim brought up going to the doctor, but then they want to say that since we rely on science for the demonstrable then we must extend that and assume that science can provide all the answers, even the non-demonstrable. Such as the origins of the universe. How can you demonstrate that? That's why in the realm of the hard sciences like chemistry and physics there is an acceptence of religion and the make up of scientists in those fields refelect the religious make up of society as a whole, but in those soft sciences. Those that theorise in the realms that could never be demonstrated there is a predominance of secularists? A chemist would never tell you that water is made up of a hydrogen molocule and two oxygen molecules due to the absence of God, no, they only state what is demonstrable.
In the "natural sciences" wich are that by name only. There is a movent to demonstrate that the universe came into existence WITOUT God. So the big-band theory and evolution are proposed. Not because they are demonstrable, but because there is the refusal to even consider one possibility wich is that there was a purposefull design and THAT is the 800 pound gorrilla in the room that they try to ignore.
As far as concrete proof that there is a God or a first cause is the order in the universe, because not only is it contrary to what is demonstrable, but it defies logic to claim that order came from chaos.
In the 70's there was a resurgence of intrest in the theory of evolution. It was gaining popularity in schools and in the public at large. One of the top evolutionary scientists at the time (I'll get the name and sourse for this when it's not 1:30 in the morning and I was dragged out of bed... for reasons other than this thread mind you) was asked why it was that a scientific theory was gaining such popular supprot and he said that it was because "people don't want God in thier bedrooms". He didn't say because the empirical evidence was overwhelming or that it was unquestionable demonstrable, but rather that people glomed on to it because they WANTED to accept the base premise that God is either non-existant or uninvolved so that they can feel free to live ther lives accordingly. That is why people will fight tooth and nail to fight for a scientific theory that has yet to be demonstrated as true.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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