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I'm back to further beat this dead horse... The discussion seems to veer off topic into the beliefs of various religions. The question contains two subject nouns; religion and society. Nowhere does it ask about Judaism or Christ or the Buddha or the Godess. I have said that religion is harmful because it is used by bourgoise society to suppress the proletariate part of class struggle. I have made mention of the fact that it offers the only comfort to the powerless. Other than it's function as 'the opiate of the people', religion functions as an intrument of oppression in society. Any of you guys want to tell me why I'm wrong without using the Torah, the Bible or anything else that requires faith as the foundation of your reasoning? 
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Quote:
Other than it's function as 'the opiate of the people', religion functions as an intrument of oppression in society.
Any of you guys want to tell me why I'm wrong without using the Torah, the Bible or anything else that requires faith as the foundation of your reasoning?
We can't quote scripture, but you can quote Marx? Bit of a double standard, huh?
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Other than it's function as 'the opiate of the people', religion functions as an intrument of oppression in society.
Any of you guys want to tell me why I'm wrong without using the Torah, the Bible or anything else that requires faith as the foundation of your reasoning?
We can't quote scripture, but you can quote Marx? Bit of a double standard, huh?
The opium quote is by Hagel, not Marx. And it's not a double standard. You can use any logical argument you want. I'm tired of hearing 'my God says so' in answer to the question about the value of religion as a social institution. There are so many ways you can counter my statements without turning to the Bible. Can you provide no logical response in defense of your institution? What I'm asking for is a dialecticle argument to support your views.
Last edited by magicjay38; 2005-08-25 12:26 AM.
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so you saying that wanna cant back his beliefs up unless he does it the way you believe?  now theres some logic!
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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
so you saying that wanna cant back his beliefs up unless he does it the way you believe? now theres some logic!
No BSAMS, I'm saying that turning to God for the answer does nothing to advance the discussion. 'Is religion good for society?' is a secular question. To advance the discussion we'd all have to reach a consensus on the nature of the Divine, and that's not going to happen! It devolves to a argument about who's God/Goddess is the best.
The All is better than Yaweh...
The All is better than Yaweh...
The All is better than Yaweh...
Na, Na na na na.....na
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
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i suppose but secularism is it's own religion. science is religion. example, it's widely believed by most that the earth travels around the sun. why? because we read it in books that are written by people who were taught by people that follow the same beliefs in science. now because these beliefs were handed down from men claiming to have came up with the ideas thereselves it's called science. even though you have seen no proof that the earth does indeed orbit the sun. same as man landing on the moon, the vast majority believe it happened because we saw pictures and read it in papers. all based on faith. faith in science. no one has proof other than pictures and viseo that someone they never met took, yet because it was a scientist it is believed. i find it arrogant that "secularists" bash religious people's beliefs when their is based on no more than faith either.
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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
i suppose but secularism is it's own religion. science is religion. example, it's widely believed by most that the earth travels around the sun. why? because we read it in books that are written by people who were taught by people that follow the same beliefs in science. now because these beliefs were handed down from men claiming to have came up with the ideas thereselves it's called science. even though you have seen no proof that the earth does indeed orbit the sun. same as man landing on the moon, the vast majority believe it happened because we saw pictures and read it in papers. all based on faith. faith in science. no one has proof other than pictures and viseo that someone they never met took, yet because it was a scientist it is believed. i find it arrogant that "secularists" bash religious people's beliefs when their is based on no more than faith either.
Some interesting points here.
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magicjay38 said:
The opium quote is by Hagel, not Marx.
No, it was Marx
"Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes".
Translated as:
"Religion ... is the opium of the people."
From the entire quote:
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people." - Karl Marx
At least when I quote scripture I know who I'm quoting.
Seriously I can quote a reaonable passage of scripture and it would have every bit as much wieght as a "reasonable" quote from Marx or Hagel or whoever you think your quoting. True "God says so therefore it's true" holds no wieght for someone who hasn't accepted scrpture as the word of God without err, but if you were more familiar with scripture you would know that it often contains dialecticle arguments. The logic of scripture is still logic, but I will gladly provide a logical argument without refering to scripture when you can provide one without siting the works or other known secular philosophers, because I'm tired of hearing "Hegel (or Nietzsche or Marx or Kant or Camu) says so".
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
so you saying that wanna cant back his beliefs up unless he does it the way you believe? now theres some logic!
No BSAMS, I'm saying that turning to God for the answer does nothing to advance the discussion. 'Is religion good for society?' is a secular question. To advance the discussion we'd all have to reach a consensus on the nature of the Divine, and that's not going to happen! It devolves to a argument about who's God/Goddess is the best.
The All is better than Yaweh...
The All is better than Yaweh...
The All is better than Yaweh...
Na, Na na na na.....na
As much as your childish rants about the supiriority of a laundry detergent to God serve to move the discussion along I would dissagree that turning to God does nothing to further the discussion, because after all what is religion, but the worship of God or some higher power. There are some like me who think that religion for religions sake is worthless and therefore offer nothing to society, but confusion, but if God is real then the orginised worhip of that God is very good for society, but you would say thast that argument is moot, because you don't want God brought up in a discussion about religion. That's like discussing flight without discussing air or gravity.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
Methos said:
Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
i suppose but secularism is it's own religion. science is religion. example, it's widely believed by most that the earth travels around the sun. why? because we read it in books that are written by people who were taught by people that follow the same beliefs in science. now because these beliefs were handed down from men claiming to have came up with the ideas thereselves it's called science. even though you have seen no proof that the earth does indeed orbit the sun. same as man landing on the moon, the vast majority believe it happened because we saw pictures and read it in papers. all based on faith. faith in science. no one has proof other than pictures and viseo that someone they never met took, yet because it was a scientist it is believed. i find it arrogant that "secularists" bash religious people's beliefs when their is based on no more than faith either.
Some interesting points here.
of course, i'm always right.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
The opium quote is by Hagel, not Marx.
No, it was Marx
"Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes".
Translated as:
"Religion ... is the opium of the people."
From the entire quote:
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people." - Karl Marx
At least when I quote scripture I know who I'm quoting.
Seriously I can quote a reaonable passage of scripture and it would have every bit as much wieght as a "reasonable" quote from Marx or Hagel or whoever you think your quoting. True "God says so therefore it's true" holds no wieght for someone who hasn't accepted scrpture as the word of God without err, but if you were more familiar with scripture you would know that it often contains dialecticle arguments. The logic of scripture is still logic, but I will gladly provide a logical argument without refering to scripture when you can provide one without siting the works or other known secular philosophers, because I'm tired of hearing "Hegel (or Nietzsche or Marx or Kant or Camu) says so".
It's Hagel. At least that's who Marx attributed it to in his doctoral dissertation.Since you don't want to answer a secular question with secular reasoning, we can do it your way.
The Goddess has nothing to say about human institutions, including religion. She wants you to be in touch with her directly. A High Priestess or Priest may offer guidance and accumulated knowledge of the ways of the All but it's really up to the individual to intuit their own path. The Pagan Way has very little heirarchy and sole practioners are common. But beliefs and traditions vary widely. Trying to get a group of Wiccans to act in an institutional way is a bit like herding cats I'm afraid. Thus, there is little institutional structure to interact with society. We seek to advance our lives on our own chosen paths while paying respect to the Reede, the Law of 3 and our Karma.
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If something can be demostrated and repeated, it can generally pass the "faith" test.
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so you agree with me about science being a religion based on faith?
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No.
Science is the methodical study of the world around us; religion is the belief (or assumption) of a supernatural being. The two are fundamentally at odds as far as what they claim to know about the world around us.
Science doesn't claim to have all the answers, instead trying to discover what questions should be asked. Religion claims to have all the answers without asking any questions and instead conforming to rituals.
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Quote:
theory9 said:
No.
Science is the methodical study of the world around us; religion is the belief (or assumption) of a supernatural being. The two are fundamentally at odds as far as what they claim to know about the world around us.
science is also constantly being updated, you're not allowed to update or even question the bible.
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r3x29yz4a said:
science is also constantly being updated, you're not allowed to update or even question the bible.
http://www.tmbible.com/tothe.htm
http://www.shakinandshinin.org/BibleVersions.html
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Quote:
theory9 said:
No.
Science is the methodical study of the world around us; religion is the belief (or assumption) of a supernatural being. The two are fundamentally at odds as far as what they claim to know about the world around us.
Science doesn't claim to have all the answers, instead trying to discover what questions should be asked. Religion claims to have all the answers without asking any questions and instead conforming to rituals.
see you have complete faith in science that is your belief. by saying your belief system requires you to ask questions and religions doesnt means that you believe in your sytem and not theirs. because one came from the bible and the other a science book does not make yours superior. but in the minds of many it is, just as in the minds of many religious people there's is. what are your belief on the earth orbiting the sun? If you do believe it, I'd like to hear your proof. Or if you believe it because of men you have never met agreeing that it is so. Remeber at one time men of great minds claimed a God rode a Flaming Chariot across the sky and that was the sun. Now you are told that gasses in the vaccum of space cause this. Is one any more absurd than the other? To most it prolly is but I find it a huge leap of logic to decide that somehow anyone knows or has a good idea. Yet I'm sure you will quote all the scientific studies. Which of course are based on Scientific studies. Yet if someone were to quote the Bible people would say can't you find a basis for your argument besides the Bible. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.
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When you are Ill do you consult a Shaman, A Christian Science Pratitioner, some other faith based healer or a Medical Doctor (MD)? 
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Since you don't want to answer a secular question with secular reasoning, we can do it your way.
Acctually I did give you a secular answer. I said religion for religions sake is useless. Only if there is substance to worship does it hold any value.
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
When you are Ill do you consult a Shaman, A Christian Science Pratitioner, some other faith based healer or a Medical Doctor (MD)?
I go to my doctor as well as ask my church for prayer. My doctor is a Christian so she also prays for me. On a side note. If the MD is so eernally wise why does she have to carry Mal Practice insurance?
The basis of your reasoning is flawed because you attempt to pit science against religion as though the two were in opposition to one another. That's just not true. One of the elders of my church is a scientist. Does that make him any less religious or does it make him any less a scientist?
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Since you don't want to answer a secular question with secular reasoning, we can do it your way.
Acctually I did give you a secular answer. I said religion for religions sake is useless. Only if there is substance to worship does it hold any value.
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
When you are Ill do you consult a Shaman, A Christian Science Pratitioner, some other faith based healer or a Medical Doctor (MD)?
I go to my doctor as well as ask my church for prayer. My doctor is a Christian so she also prays for me. On a side note. If the MD is so eernally wise why does she have to carry Mal Practice insurance?
The basis of your reasoning is flawed because you attempt to pit science against religion as though the two were in opposition to one another. That's just not true. One of the elders of my church is a scientist. Does that make him any less religious or does it make him any less a scientist?
I asked BSAMS a question. How is ANY reasoning revealed in that question? flawed or otherwise.
You seem to think I have no regard for the value of faith. That's not true. I value the spiritual above all else. But I have no need to impose my beliefs on others. The question posed in the topic of this thread is for me one of sociology, not faith. It falls into the realm of social science. The method differs little from the hard sciences, only the permissable deviations from the mean are greater.
Oh, here's another banana ! 
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
When you are Ill do you consult a Shaman, A Christian Science Pratitioner, some other faith based healer or a Medical Doctor (MD)?
None of the above. I haven't went to the doctor for illness. I don't believe in Faith based healers, and Christian Scientists are nuts.
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I wonder if you will continue to dodge my questions now that i have answered yours?
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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
I wonder if you will continue to dodge my questions now that i have answered yours?
What question, Luddite?
Last edited by magicjay38; 2005-08-25 6:14 PM.
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maybe that is why your points don't seem to have anything to do with the posts proceeding them, comprehension is a difficult thing for some people.
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also there are 2 "d"'s in luddite.
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
You can use any logical argument you want. I'm tired of hearing 'my God says so' in answer to the question about the value of religion as a social institution. There are so many ways you can counter my statements without turning to the Bible. Can you provide no logical response in defense of your institution? What I'm asking for is a dialecticle argument to support your views.
Christianity isn't simply a "because God said so" mentality. You're thinking of the Hellenic religions. Christianity has a set philosophy to it. Even if God doesn't exist, you'll have to prove how its scripture is "illogical" in its demands of Christian practitioners.
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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
maybe that is why your points don't seem to have anything to do with the posts proceeding them, comprehension is a difficult thing for some people.
Well, I don't like having my chain jerked by the ratiocinationly challenged. Besides T9 said what my response would have been to your questions about the movements of Earth in relation to the Sun. If you'd like you can replicate the study, go ahead, but personally I'll take Copernicus's word for it.
'I haven't went to the doctor for illness' - When did the past indicative become interchangable with the participle of the verb "to go" ?
Oh, and your homophobia doesn't speak well of you either, since I'm queer myself.
Which is long way of saying that you have no credibility.
Last edited by magicjay38; 2005-08-25 5:55 PM.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
You can use any logical argument you want. I'm tired of hearing 'my God says so' in answer to the question about the value of religion as a social institution. There are so many ways you can counter my statements without turning to the Bible. Can you provide no logical response in defense of your institution? What I'm asking for is a dialecticle argument to support your views.
Christianity isn't simply a "because God said so" mentality. You're thinking of the Hellenic religions. Christianity has a set philosophy to it. Even if God doesn't exist, you'll have to prove how its scripture is "illogical" in its demands of Christian practitioners.
Okay, Pariah. My position is Marxist. Religion is an institution used by the oppressors of the proletariate as an instrument of social control. Institutional Christianity in particular is is complicite in this oppression. Jealous of the power of their superiors, the Imperial Roman Government, they created a priestly cast. Priests became useful to the empire by bending their slave followers to the interests of the empire. Just as it does today. The institution serves keep people resigned to a life of quiet desperation.
What does Scripture have to say to rebut that position?
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Christianity isn't simply a "because God said so" mentality. You're thinking of the Hellenic religions. Christianity has a set philosophy to it. Even if God doesn't exist, you'll have to prove how its scripture is "illogical" in its demands of Christian practitioners.
please tell me one aspect of the bible that you disagree with.
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Science offers a variety of tools-mathematics, physics, and chemistry are a few-that allow us to measure and evaluate the world around us (these tools also predate the Bible). One can discover, through observation and interaction, the laws of the universe; these laws are not immutable and limited by our understanding, but do offer a fairly consistent view of the world. The attraction between masses, the distance to the sun and other planets, and their relation to each other can also be evaluated and proven by conducting experiments in a lab (or even in one's backyard).
The Bible began as an oral tradition, not being written down until roughly 60 years after the death of Christ. Even acknowledging that oral traditions were more accurate and reliable than in the modern age of computers and short attention spans, it is reasonable to assume that parts of the Bible were inadvertantly changed as it is passed down to the generations. There is also considerable allegorical evidence that the Bible is a "final draft" of sorts, framed by the writers to make the best impression. We see this in the suppression of the Dead Sea Scrolls by the Vatican, and many scholars believe that the origins of many passages in the Bible are linked to the ancient tribe of the Essenses (sp?).
Using the Bible to argue is, of course, your choice. Yet every argument based from the Bible requires me to grant every premise of your argument. Inevitably, you will quote scripture as proof, which only works if I allow you to do this: assume to be true that which you are trying to prove. God is a matter of faith, and everyone is welcome to it, but I would have to share your faith for any argument to work. Nothing is logical about the existence of God, and a logical argument where no premises are granted would find God to be a short subject.
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Religion also offers a variety of tools.
like Pariah.
he's a tool.
Bow ties are coool.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 14,203
1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
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1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 14,203 |
Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
also there are 2 "d"'s in luddite.
actually, the word is lucite.
Bow ties are coool.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
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1500+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657 |
Quote:
theory9 said:
Science offers a variety of tools-mathematics, physics, and chemistry are a few-that allow us to measure and evaluate the world around us (these tools also predate the Bible). One can discover, through observation and interaction, the laws of the universe; these laws are not immutable and limited by our understanding, but do offer a fairly consistent view of the world. The attraction between masses, the distance to the sun and other planets, and their relation to each other can also be evaluated and proven by conducting experiments in a lab (or even in one's backyard).
The Bible began as an oral tradition, not being written down until roughly 60 years after the death of Christ. Even acknowledging that oral traditions were more accurate and reliable than in the modern age of computers and short attention spans, it is reasonable to assume that parts of the Bible were inadvertantly changed as it is passed down to the generations. There is also considerable allegorical evidence that the Bible is a "final draft" of sorts, framed by the writers to make the best impression. We see this in the suppression of the Dead Sea Scrolls by the Vatican, and many scholars believe that the origins of many passages in the Bible are linked to the ancient tribe of the Essenses (sp?).
Using the Bible to argue is, of course, your choice. Yet every argument based from the Bible requires me to grant every premise of your argument. Inevitably, you will quote scripture as proof, which only works if I allow you to do this: assume to be true that which you are trying to prove. God is a matter of faith, and everyone is welcome to it, but I would have to share your faith for any argument to work. Nothing is logical about the existence of God, and a logical argument where no premises are granted would find God to be a short subject.
You might want to substitute New Testament for Bible in the second paragraph.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
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1500+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657 |
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Religion also offers a variety of tools.
like Pariah.
he's a tool.
It's true! When I click the Tools pull-down at the top of Firefox, a picture of Pariah drops!
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
also there are 2 "d"'s in luddite.
actually, the word is lucite.
I bellieve he was reffering to people who were afraid of technology and science calle luddites.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
theory9 said:
Science offers a variety of tools-mathematics, physics, and chemistry are a few-that allow us to measure and evaluate the world around us (these tools also predate the Bible). One can discover, through observation and interaction, the laws of the universe; these laws are not immutable and limited by our understanding, but do offer a fairly consistent view of the world. The attraction between masses, the distance to the sun and other planets, and their relation to each other can also be evaluated and proven by conducting experiments in a lab (or even in one's backyard).
The Bible began as an oral tradition, not being written down until roughly 60 years after the death of Christ. Even acknowledging that oral traditions were more accurate and reliable than in the modern age of computers and short attention spans, it is reasonable to assume that parts of the Bible were inadvertantly changed as it is passed down to the generations. There is also considerable allegorical evidence that the Bible is a "final draft" of sorts, framed by the writers to make the best impression. We see this in the suppression of the Dead Sea Scrolls by the Vatican, and many scholars believe that the origins of many passages in the Bible are linked to the ancient tribe of the Essenses (sp?).
Using the Bible to argue is, of course, your choice. Yet every argument based from the Bible requires me to grant every premise of your argument. Inevitably, you will quote scripture as proof, which only works if I allow you to do this: assume to be true that which you are trying to prove. God is a matter of faith, and everyone is welcome to it, but I would have to share your faith for any argument to work. Nothing is logical about the existence of God, and a logical argument where no premises are granted would find God to be a short subject.
See how strong your faith is in Science, you believe that without question. You actually believe that there are ways to measure distances in the universe. You really believe that. And these experiments and laws that the scientists pass on to each other each believing them is believed by you. Though you cannot prove that the earth is x-miles from the sun, your faith in science tells you it is, even though you have no idea. Scientist use formulas that cannot be proven but cannot be disproven so it is accepted as fact.
For instance evolution is taught in schools even though it is a belief system. You don't believe me, then why is there a search for a missing link? I'm not attacking ones faith in Science, I just get amused at how absolute some people's faith is in it, and like you you swear it is different, and from your post and majicjays I really believe that you do believe it, yet you can't fathom how others can be equally sure in their belief.
As far as suppression of the dead sea scrolls, you'll have to excuse me if I act ignorant and pretend that Science journals and societies do not always suppress differing scientific views and allow them official publication in accepted journals. If it doesn't fit the "cannon" of accepted science it is ridiculed.
Your science that is always proven is always disproven when a new hole is found in it. Always. This year eating more carrots will be proven in a lab to reduce cancer. Next year it will be proven that it causes cancer. The loop continues. But because of your faith in science you ignore this. So while I'm sure you believe that science is proven it is quite clear otherwise.
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Joined: May 2003
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6000+ posts
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6000+ posts
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A firm belief in science means this: I am willing to, in light of new empirical evidence, revisit, reconsider, revamp, or even reject my theory of the Universe.
THAT is what science is all about (Charlie Brown).
Believing in science isn't believing in something immutable. Rather, it's believing in the idea that what we hold to be True now may be overturned tomorrow in light of new and better empirical evidence.
Religion is about holding a belief as an immutable concept. What it was yesterday is what it is today is what it will be tomorrow.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2 |
agreed jim, they are both belief systems!
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2 |
i hope this doesnt make you think im gay.
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