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Horrific inhuman stuff.
And yet another cover-up from the Bush Administration.
The Bush administration is now violating a court order to release the rest of its Abu Ghraib photos to the ACLU. Editor & Publisher has done a great job of helping suss out what those remaining photos are:
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Pentagon Blocks Release of Abu Ghraib Images: Here's Why
By Greg Mitchell
Published: July 23, 2005 6:00 PM ET
NEW YORK So what is shown on the 87 photographs and four videos from Abu Ghraib prison that the Pentagon, in an eleventh hour move, blocked from release this weekend? One clue: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress last year, after viewing a large cache of unreleased images: "I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe.” They show acts "that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he added.
A Republican Senator suggested the same day they contained scenes of “rape and murder.” No wonder Rumsfeld commented then, "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse."
Yesterday, news emerged that lawyers for the Pentagon had refused to cooperate with a federal judge's order to release dozens of unseen photographs and videos from Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq by Saturday. The photos were among thousands turned over by the key “whistleblower” in the scandal, Specialist Joseph M. Darby. Just a few that were released to the press sparked the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal last year, and the video images are said to be even more shocking.
The Pentagon lawyers said in a letter sent to the federal court in Manhattan that they would file a sealed brief explaining their reasons for not turning over the material. They had been ordered to do so by a federal judge in response to a FOIA lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union. The ACLU accused the government Friday of putting another legal roadblock in the way of its bid to allow the public to see the images of the prisoner abuse scandal.
One Pentagon lawyer has argued that they should not be released because they would only add to the humiliation of the prisoners. But the ACLU has said the faces of the victims can easily be "redacted."
To get a sense of what may be shown in these images, one has to go back to press reports from when the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal was still front page news.
This is how CNN reported it on May 8, 2004, in a typical account that day:
“U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld revealed Friday that videos and ‘a lot more pictures’ exist of the abuse of Iraqis held at Abu Ghraib prison.
"’If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse,’ Rumsfeld told the Senate Armed Services Committee. ‘I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe.’
“The embattled defense secretary fielded sharp and skeptical questions from lawmakers as he testified about the growing prisoner abuse scandal. A military report about that abuse describes detainees being threatened, sodomized with a chemical light and forced into sexually humiliating poses.
“Charges have been brought against seven service members, and investigations into events at the prison continue.
“Military investigators have looked into -- or are continuing to investigate -- 35 cases of alleged abuse or deaths of prisoners in detention facilities in the Central Command theater, according to Army Secretary Les Brownlee. Two of those cases were deemed homicides, he said.
"’The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience,’ Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told reporters after Rumsfeld testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee. ’We're talking about rape and murder -- and some very serious charges.’
“A report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba on the abuse at the prison outside Baghdad says videotapes and photographs show naked detainees, and that groups of men were forced to masturbate while being photographed and videotaped. Taguba also found evidence of a ‘male MP guard having sex with a female detainee.’
“Rumsfeld told Congress the unrevealed photos and videos contain acts 'that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman.’”
The military later screened some of the images for lawmakers, who said they showed, among other things, attack dogs snarling at cowed prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts, and naked prisoners forced to have sex with each other.
In the same period, reporter Seymour Hersh, who helped uncover the scandal, said in a speech before an ACLU convention: “Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok? Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men….The women were passing messages saying ‘Please come and kill me, because of what's happened.’
“Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror it's going to come out.”
The rape of women and CHILDREN!
I'm sickened, disgusted, ashamed.
and yet i'm almost 100% certain that others here won't be.
Apologists start your engines.
'Yeah. Please don't expose me as a torturer because that might add to the humiliation my victim has to face'. 'Sure, exposing me as a torturer also means I'll probably have to stop torturing my victim, the victim I care so much about that I don't want to humiliate him by informing the world that I'm torturing him'.
Yeah, right.
The rape of little boys. Well God bless America. I'm so damned proud of my country right now, I could just, well, rape a little boy.
Yeah, I sure wouldn't want to know that my government was sanctioning, and then engaging in a cover-up, of those kind of actions. After all, the little boys who are being raped might be humiliated if we intervened and stopped them from being raped.
The most ironic part of this story is how suddenly the Bush Administration has discovered a use for the Geneva Conventions. As a tool to aviod revelations that could...... expose them to war crimes charges???! 
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
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Quote:
unrestrained id said:
I could just, well, rape a little boy.
I expected as much considering how eager you are to see the video and all...
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Jesus, Allah and David! 
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Are the offenders being investigated and/or punished?
Sure sounds like it.
Isn't that's what important?
Guess not.
As far as the "public's right to know," as a general rule, the public has never had a right to see evidentiary photos of child abuse or sexual assault.
For example, look at the Michael Jackson trial. We know that there were photos used for evidence in that case, some of a sensitive of graphic nature. And we also know the media's interest in that case was at least as obsessive as it is in this case.
But did the media or ACLU scream "public right to know" in that case?
Of course not. In fact, in a typical case, the ACLU is screaming about the rights of the ACCUSED not to have the photos "prejudice the case."
This would seem to indicate that the motivation here is not so much "educating the public," as it is sensationalism and stirring up anti-war/anti-Bush sentiment.
Furthermore, ever other time these numbskulls have gotten this stuff out there, the first reaction of a sizeable portion of the terrorist community is to riot and/or step up efforts to kill soldiers and civilians.
Don't they care that their actions may give terrorists an excuse to KILL people?
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Quote:
the G-man said:
For example, look at the Michael Jackson trial. We know that there were photos used for evidence in that case, some of a sensitive of graphic nature. And we also know the media's interest in that case was at least as obsessive as it is in this case.
But did the media scream "public right to know" in that case?
Michael Jackson is a private individual, not a representative of the nation's interests...huge mother fucking difference there.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
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Where are the pictures of the semen stained dress and Bill Clinton's penis from the Paula Jones-Monica Lewinsky cases then?
Where are the photos when a cop commits a sex act on duty?
Answer: even in those cases, where the defendent is acting in a government capacity, the public's "right to know" is still trumped.
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Those were unnecessary. Thier existence was never questioned.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
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No one is questioning anything here. Rumsfeld himself has said: “that videos and ‘a lot more pictures’ exist of the abuse of Iraqis held at Abu Ghraib prison.' (see original post)
One might argue that the publication of the original photos at least served some legitimate purpose of making sure that the government adequately investigated what happened.
Here, however, as noted in the original article, the matter is being investigated. And the perpetrators are being prosecuted.
So, as with any other criminal case, there is no reason to release the pictures...other than sensationalism and/or anti-soldier propaganda.
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I agree with the G-man here.
And that scares me.
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It's this kind of thinking that kept the Nazi concentraton camps at a level of 'myth'. It wasn't until people started seeing the reality first hand that they beleived how terrible it really was.
This information should be public. If there is anything to sensationalize....there's a fucking problem. The government should have thought of that before hand...not after the fact.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
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Quote:
the G-man said:
So, as with any other criminal case, there is no reason to release the pictures...other than sensationalism and/or anti-soldier propaganda.
sensationalism, yes.
propaganda, no.
You know if the LAPD released more Nicole Simpson crime scene photos they'd get front page space even though the trial is over.
Nothing reporters (on both sides of the political spetrum) love more than showing gore and talking about how "shocking" it is (followed by a half hour special about how these images are in the media too much).
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
It's this kind of thinking that kept the Nazi concentraton camps at a level of 'myth'. It wasn't until people started seeing the reality first hand that they beleived how terrible it really was.
Completely specious comparison.
The Nazis did not have a free press writing about this. We do.
They did not have three equal and independent branches of government, two of which (legislative and judiciary) were overseeing investigations of the third (executive). We do.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
It's this kind of thinking that kept the Nazi concentraton camps at a level of 'myth'. It wasn't until people started seeing the reality first hand that they beleived how terrible it really was.
The Nazis did not have a free press writing about this. We do.
Yeah, no Nazi free and honest press. They just had Fuchsnachrichten.
Quote:
They did not have three equal and independent branches of government, two of which (legislative and judiciary) were overseeing investigations of the third (executive). We do.
can you really say that the current Republican led Senate would honestly investigate a Republican President?
During the Clinton scandal we had a Republican senate going after a Democratic president (which I support because it kept him on his toes). I think we should have laws preventing the President's party from controlling the Senate.
Bow ties are coool.
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Your arguments alwayse hold such wieght. I'm surprised you haven't connverted me yet.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k 
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Don't they care that their actions may give terrorists an excuse to KILL people?
I actually agree with some of what you are saying (shocks me, too), but, this (above quote) holds no water. Don't use this as part of your reasoning, because it's propoganda nonsense. Terrorists have never had to have an "excuse" to kill people. Whether these pics/videos are released, they will still go on killing...
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faggot 15000+ posts
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Wow. I am so proud of our higher standard of human dignity over those damn dirty ape terrorists. We really showed them! Three cheers for American terrorists!
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
Don't they care that their actions may give terrorists an excuse to KILL people?
I actually agree with some of what you are saying (shocks me, too), but, this (above quote) holds no water. Don't use this as part of your reasoning, because it's propoganda nonsense. Terrorists have never had to have an "excuse" to kill people. Whether these pics/videos are released, they will still go on killing...
Totally wrong. Terrorists are not sociopathic serial killers. They're people who believe violence is the only way to prove their point. As long as we keep treating them like they just like to kill then we'll never get to the root of the problem.
The solution is to clean up our own overseas actions which will dry up their support.
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
Prometheus said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
Don't they care that their actions may give terrorists an excuse to KILL people?
I actually agree with some of what you are saying (shocks me, too), but, this (above quote) holds no water. Don't use this as part of your reasoning, because it's propoganda nonsense. Terrorists have never had to have an "excuse" to kill people. Whether these pics/videos are released, they will still go on killing...
Totally wrong. Terrorists are not sociopathic serial killers. They're people who believe violence is the only way to prove their point. As long as we keep treating them like they just like to kill then we'll never get to the root of the problem.
The solution is to clean up our own overseas actions which will dry up their support.
One point does not negate the other. At no point did I infer they were "sociopathic serial killers". Your making an assumption. The terrorists already have their "reasons" to kill. Publicly displaying these pics/vids would not give them any more of an "excuse" to kill than they already have. It might make others in the world like us less. But, as for the terrorists, all they have to do is point to us not praying to their god for a reason to kill. Thus, my original point. Thanks for lashing out blindly... 
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
Prometheus said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
Don't they care that their actions may give terrorists an excuse to KILL people?
I actually agree with some of what you are saying (shocks me, too), but, this (above quote) holds no water. Don't use this as part of your reasoning, because it's propoganda nonsense. Terrorists have never had to have an "excuse" to kill people. Whether these pics/videos are released, they will still go on killing...
Totally wrong. Terrorists are not sociopathic serial killers. They're people who believe violence is the only way to prove their point. As long as we keep treating them like they just like to kill then we'll never get to the root of the problem.
The solution is to clean up our own overseas actions which will dry up their support.
One point does not negate the other. At no point did I infer they were "sociopathic serial killers". Your making an assumption. The terrorists already have their "reasons" to kill. Publicly displaying these pics/vids would not give them any more of an "excuse" to kill than they already have. It might make others in the world like us less. But, as for the terrorists, all they have to do is point to us not praying to their god for a reason to kill. Thus, my original point. Thanks for lashing out blindly...
you said they don't need a reason to kill. That would make them sociopaths.
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
They did not have three equal and independent branches of government, two of which (legislative and judiciary) were overseeing investigations of the third (executive). We do.
can you really say that the current Republican led Senate would honestly investigate a Republican President?
No.
During the Watergate investigation, the Republicans did step up and question alongside Democrats, investigate and eventually asked the president to resign in light of inevitable impeachment.
Republicans today however, have become so obsessed with personal loyalty that they've forgotten that their first duty is to country, not party or friend. A GOP Congress won't even ask the questions.
The current GOP Congress has shown absolutely no interest in investigating anything since 9/11 because there's no clear way to blame Democrats for it, and they seem to have learned a little bit that inventing blame out of whole cloth on TV doesn't always work in their favor. The only recent televised hearing in which the GOP tried to smear its opponents was the whole oil-for-food thing, where George Galloway mopped the floor with Norm Coleman (R-MN), so they're not eager for more, and they're certainly not willing to investigate the Bush administration.
Fox News and the Screaming Partisans will defend any GOP-sourced misconduct as absolutely right, and any criticism as Unamerican ( for example, Abu Ghraib). The post-Watergate press has treated all such stories as "he said, she said" as long as the conservatives accuse any investigation of being partisan, which is why they accuse every investigation of being partisan.
if the Democrats had any kind of message discipline, they'd be using GOP history to their benefit." The Eisenhower administration was the only GOP administration of the last 85 years that wasn't corrupt or incompetent in the end (the Eisenhower White House was opposed to McCarthy and his tactics BTW) . Harding had Teapot Dome; Hoover couldn't deal with the Great Depression, Nixon and Ford had Watergate, Reagan and Bush had Iran-Contra, and now George W. Bush has Iraq. The Democrats should mention the last two GOP scandals with this one all in one breath: "Watergate, Iran-Contra, and Iraq."
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
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Ike "allowed" France to use Marshall money to fund their war in Cambodia, which foreshadowed our sending of "military advisors" to Vietnam. Almost, though.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Where are the pictures of the semen stained dress and Bill Clinton's penis from the Paula Jones-Monica Lewinsky cases then?
Where are the photos when a cop commits a sex act on duty?
Answer: even in those cases, where the defendent is acting in a government capacity, the public's "right to know" is still trumped.
A google image search will show a picture of the blue dress. You can't see the stain. Also, it's navy blue not the azure blue presented in many photos.
As for Bill Clinton's Penis:
Quote:
A Republican Responds To Jenna Bush's Arrest Without Mentioning Bill Clinton's Penis!
Republican's Failure to Resort to the Wholly Predictable is Witnessed by a Startled Nation
Mrs. Jasper Williams, Republican
(NEW YORK, NEW YORK) Last night, ABC News actually found a Republican who could talk about President Bush's problems without even once mentioning former-President Bill Clinton's crotch. During a routine segment of the program 20/20, a Mrs. Jasper Williams, of Billings, Montana was questioned about her reaction to hearing that President Bush's daughters had been cited for alcohol offenses in Austin, Texas. A shocked audience listened as Mrs. Williams completed all her comments without so much as using the crack of Mr. Clinton's backside to deflect attention away from the issue in question.
Governor Jim Gilmore, Chairman of the Republican National Committee, said that he could not account for Mrs. Williams' astonishing omission. "All our focus groups were telling us that we have successfully hammered into our followers' heads just how to deal with any and all criticism of Republican policies -- whether foreign or domestic. Before you even think about what the other person said, you mention Bill Clinton's dick," said Mr. Gilmore. "Frankly, I have to question whether this Williams chick is even a real Republican. I mean, I'm sure she's a nice lady and all, but real Republicans know the game-plan and they don't take unnecessary risks – like talking substantively or throwing in their own so-called 'ideas.' Once you let people do that, you are inviting all types of anarchistic bedlam and introspection. That's not what we are about."
When reached on Capitol Hill, Minority Leader Trent Lott (R – Miss.) responded to the broadcast with disbelief. "Well, isn't this a crazy world full of dang surprises?" whistled Mr. Lott. "For example, I never thought I'd be a leader of any minority! Hee-hee. But any Republican who responds to any criticism without mentioning Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton's pecker right off the bat just ain't on the ball. If I hadn't seen the tape I would, frankly, think you were making this up. This Williams woman owes our President an apology and I'm going to see that he gets it."
"Fwankly, I was fwabbergasted," responded Barbara Walters. "This admitted, practicing Republican spoke for almost a full minute without even obliquely alluding to what lies within our former Pwesident's underpants. This is unheard of! I mean, this is a remarkable woman. Here, I was asking what could be construed as a negative question about a Republican pwesident and this Republican woman didn't so much as mention one of Mr. Clinton's testicles. I just don't know what to make of this! This is a first and I am privileged to have been there when it happened. Truly, it is these once-in-a-lifetime opportunities that make reporting so gratifying. Well, and the money."
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Why exactly do be people wanna add fuel to the fire?
These men are under investigation and being indicted. What more do you want? A crash course on why rape is wrong? We know it's wrong. We don't need a friggin' video to tell us that.
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Perhaps the best reason to release the photos is that, until we do, we will never be able to comprehend the meaning of this story in full, never be able to truly put this behind us, and never be able to correct the wrongs.
Healing necessarily begins with acknowledging you have a problem.
democracy doesn't work when you sweep issues under the rug.It sounds like a survivor from an alcoholic family, let's keep this a secret, so that no one has to be affected by it and if it happens again, let's keep it a secret so no one has to be affected by it, and also if it happens again, let's keep it a secret, let's don't let it out so no one has to be unduly affected by it.
I suppose that if the pictures were realeased, that it would mean the beginning of the end of Bush Inc., for many things. However, we know that the pictures exist and we know what the pictures and videos contain, right? This last minute cover-up will not last for long, but I am of the opinion that knowledge is power. The mere fact that these acts took place and that the DOD took evasive action should be more than telling. Of course, the problem is that they will mitigate the severity of the situation either by pretending [publicly or by omission that] these atrocities didn't happen or by going back to the argument that these were the actions of a few and should not be considered the policy of the White House.
And in response to MagicJay's funny post: 
"Yes, we've tortured people, we've put people in camps for years without being charged or having representation, we've killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, we've ignored or refused to sign international treaties, we've increased terrorism throughout the world, we've raped women and children, we've exposed covert CIA operatives in order to exact petty revenge, we've lied about everything from reasons to go to war to phony turkeys on Thanksgiving, but no one in this administration had a blow job. At least we have our priorities straight."
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
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Quote:
unrestrained id said:
Healing necessarily begins with acknowledging you have a problem.
What is this now? Sadist's Anonymous?
Voted "Biggest Waste Of Space" On The Bat-Boards For "Multiple Reasons" Jerry Falwell On Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer:"Those hollywood, homosexual, jewish types making a show about a reindeer who is 'different' and just cant 'hide it'. Everyone knows if he tries hard enough he can convert himself to a normal, black-nosed reindeer." I am 95% addicted to Porn. What about you?
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Quote:
unrestrained id said:
Perhaps the best reason to release the photos is that, until we do, we will never be able to comprehend the meaning of this story in full, never be able to truly put this behind us, and never be able to correct the wrongs.
You do realize that this is rationalizing yes? Do you really think people don't see the fact that you're simply trying to defame the military?
Either that or you just get off on child rape, I'm not sure.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
unrestrained id said:
Perhaps the best reason to release the photos is that, until we do, we will never be able to comprehend the meaning of this story in full, never be able to truly put this behind us, and never be able to correct the wrongs.
Do you really think people don't see the fact that you're simply trying to defame the military?
Either that or you just get off on child rape, I'm not sure.
Defame the military?
I think the ones being defamed were the people being raped.
See, i'm of the opinion that either you keep this under wraps and this sort of inhumanity continues or you release it to a mass audience where the resulting shitstorm causes it to stop definatevely.
The arab street's reaction? The rest of the world? Do you really think they don't already know? No, the only ones caught oblivious are the average Americans being constantly propagandized and lied to about anything and everything going on in Iraq. In our name.
It almost makes me think that this Administration actively WANTS to radicalize the middle east.
You get this to stop by getting it to stop. And prosecuting some Seargent from Podunk Ala. and declaring it an "isolated incident" won't make it stop. Not in Iraq, not in Guantanamo, not in Diego Garcia or anywhere else. A mass media public scandal on the other hand will make it stop because we'll demand it to stop as one country and demand those who authorized it and legally justified this held to account, as it is not only inhumane and barbaric, but it is patently UnAmerican and against evrything we say we stand for.
Which is another difference. There are some (a very vocal minority) who say that those seeking this madnesss to cease are the UnAmerican ones. And the status quo and a hearty STFU is what they want.
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Quote:
unrestrained id said:
See, i'm of the opinion that either you keep this under wraps and this sort of inhumanity continues
How's the rape being kept under raps? The military isn't denying it and they're punishing the soldiers for it. End of story.
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or you release it to a mass audience where the resulting shitstorm causes it to stop definatevely.
So you can blame the "shitstorm" on the administration and the military when really it was you who wanted to release it whilst knowing what kind of havoc it would cause. If the happaning itself was being kept under raps and the only way to inform people of it was to release the video, I'd prolly agree with that, but this would be needless and irresponsible.
Last edited by Pariah; 2005-07-25 8:24 AM.
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Quote:
White House threatens veto on detainee policies
By Vicki Allen
Thu Jul 21, 7:45 PM ET
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The White House on Thursday threatened to veto a massive Senate bill for $442 billion in next year's defense programs if it moves to regulate the Pentagon's treatment of detainees or sets up a commission to investigate operations at Guantanamo Bay prison and elsewhere.
The Bush administration, under fire for the indefinite detention of enemy combatants at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba and questions over whether its policies led to horrendous abuses at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, put lawmakers on notice it did not want them legislating on the matter.
In a statement, the White House said such amendments would "interfere with the protection of Americans from terrorism by diverting resources from the war."
"If legislation is presented that would restrict the president's authority to protect Americans effectively from terrorist attack and bring terrorists to justice," the bill could be vetoed, the statement said.
Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), who endured torture as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, said after meeting at the Capitol with Vice President Dick Cheney that he still intended to offer amendments next week "on the standard of treatment of prisoners."
South Carolina Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham (news, bio, voting record), who was working on legislation defining the legal status of enemy combatants being held in Guantanamo, also said he would offer an amendment.
They were working with Armed Services Committee Chairman John Warner of Virginia on amendments intended to prevent further abuses in the wake of the scandal over sexual abuse and mistreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison and harsh, degrading interrogations at Guantanamo.
Possible measures included barring the holding of "ghost" detainees whose names are not disclosed, codifying a ban against cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment, and using the Army manual as a basis for all interrogations.
Democrats on Thursday said they would push an amendment to establish an independent national commission to investigate policies that led to abuses of prisoners at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and elsewhere.
Sen. Carl Levin (news, bio, voting record) of Michigan, the Armed Services Committee's top Democrat, said the commission on detainee abuses was needed because "the most serious scandal in recent military history needs an objective investigation."
Levin said the commission should be modeled on the bipartisan commission that probed the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.
Sen. Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts said the Pentagon's own investigations into detainee abuses left "huge gaps. ... The military reviewing itself, that's not good enough."
Pentagon "talking points" against the special detainee commission circulating around the Capitol said the issue had been "thoroughly investigated" and "a new open-ended investigation" would add "nothing but political theater."
The talking points said reforms were under way, and the Pentagon "has the matter well in hand. The department and the services are doing everything possible to address this challenge."
So on one hand, the Bush administration is frantically blocking the release of the photographic proof of the most horrific war crimes committed in U.S. military-run prisons.
On the other hand, the Bush administration is simultaneously threatening to veto any attempts by McCain, Graham or others to establish even rudimentary rules banning such torture -- or even investigating the torture already documented.
I think it's time to invent some new swearing, because there isn't anything currently in the language that fully encompasses the White House's unapologetic attempts to ensure the Bush administration's own crafted and approved "interrogation" policies be allowed to continue unhindered. Yes, according to the Bush administration, any attempts by Republican senators to legislate against, say, the sodomizing of detained children are unduly infringing on the president's fight against terrorists.
Truly, there is no sunken depth to which this White House does not feel comfortable indulging itself in.
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
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According to the article you posted, the veto thread is over a threatened investigation of the now more or less debunked "Koran flushing," and other allegations at Gitmo, not over the Abu Garib incident.
This is not the first time you've mixed the two camps up.
You do realize that Gitmo is in Cuba and Abu Garib is in Iraq, don't you? And you do realize that Cuba and Iraq are two completely different countries, on two completely different continents (in fact, one is an island)? And that they are separated by an entire ocean and several other land masses, don't you?
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Quote:
the G-man said:
According to the article you posted, the veto thread is over a threatened investigation of the now more or less debunked "Koran flushing," and other allegations at Gitmo, not over the Abu Garib incident.
This is not the first time you've mixed the two camps up.
You do realize that Gitmo is in Cuba and Abu Garib is in Iraq, don't you? And you do realize that Cuba and Iraq are two completely different countries, on two completely different continents (in fact, one is an island)? And that they are separated by an entire ocean and several other land masses, don't you?
You do realize that this is all related, don't you. Smarmy condescending comments aside. If not, once again.
Quote:
moves to regulate the Pentagon's treatment of detainees or sets up a commission to investigate operations at Guantanamo Bay prison and elsewhere.
They were working with Armed Services Committee Chairman John Warner of Virginia on amendments intended to prevent further abuses in the wake of the scandal over sexual abuse and mistreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison and harsh, degrading interrogations at Guantanamo.
Funny that. 2 different continents. 2 different countries!! Wow! who knew....
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Possible measures included barring the holding of "ghost" detainees whose names are not disclosed, codifying a ban against cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment, and using the Army manual as a basis for all interrogations.
Democrats on Thursday said they would push an amendment to establish an independent national commission to investigate policies that led to abuses of prisoners at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and elsewhere.
Here, let me refresh your memory as to the common theme and the origin as well as the point of all this:
The Roots of Torture
Since you want to play as if it's all about "koran flushing" and not investigating "ghost detainees", indefinate detention CHILD RAPE!, international law & treaty violations, and torture as well as regulating the treatment of prisoners in accordance to LAW and ...humanity??
The article by the way mentions NOTHING about koran flushing.
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
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There has already been a Senate Panel that investigated Gitmo. In addition members of both the Senate and the House have personally toured the site. In fact approximately ninety members of congress have personally toured the camp. And other than the aforementioned isolated and/or discredited incidents, do you know what they found? Not much: On Saturday 16 Representatives who sit on the House Armed Services Committee toured the prison, at a naval base on Cuba, during a one-day fact-finding trip.
California Democrat Ellen Tauscher, who has pushed for greater transparency about the facility, told AP news agency there had been progress since reports about alleged human rights abuses.
"The Guantanamo we saw today is not the Guantanamo we heard about a few years ago," she said.
"What we've seen here is evidence that we've made progress," said Sheila Jackson Lee, a Texas Democrat who believes the facility should close.
But legislators agreed that more needed to be done to ensure a legal framework to deal with detainees, some of whom have been held for three years without charge.
The group toured cell blocks and ate lunch with troops, a meal of chicken with orange sauce, rice and okra that was also served to inmates.
They watched the interrogation of three suspects, including one in which a detainee was read a Harry Potter book aloud for hours until he turned his back and put his hands over his ears.
None of the detainees was physically touched. Given the above, it isn't surprising that the White House has said, in regards to Gitmo, "enough is enough." At some point, it becomes a fishing expedition, not a fact-finding mission. Furthermore, this all illustrates that those who are trying to lump both camps together are doing the truth a disservice.
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Why do some opponents of the Iraq war lump Q'uran flushing in the same boat as torture? Does the Geneva convention trump 1st amendment free speech rights?
Q'uran flushing is the equal of flag burning. Both are forms of symbolic political speech. I don't know how a soldier's rights are defined under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, but in the same way I support a persons right to burn the flag, I also support a person's right to desecrate the Q'uran or Bible. Yes, they are highly disturb the audience, but the last I heard that's not illegal.
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Quote:
magicjay said:
Why do some opponents of the Iraq war lump Q'uran flushing in the same boat as torture? Does the Geneva convention trump 1st amendment free speech rights?
Q'uran flushing is the equal of flag burning. Both are forms of symbolic political speech. I don't know how a soldier's rights are defined under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, but in the same way I support a persons right to burn the flag, I also support a person's right to desecrate the Q'uran or Bible. Yes, they are highly disturb the audience, but the last I heard that's not illegal.
But they weren't flushing the book as a sign of protest they were doing it as a form of torture.
The same as locking up a catholic and shitting on the Bible.
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By that argument, flag burning is torture to US vets and should be banned.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
By that argument, flag burning is torture to US vets and should be banned.
only if its used on imprisoned veterans.
I have no problem with religious book flushing done by civilians in protest. But soldiers acting in an official capacity doing it is wrong.
Bow ties are coool.
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I have no problem with religious book flushing done by civilians in protest. But soldiers acting in an official capacity doing it is wrong.
yes. Soldiers are supposed to act in a professional manner. they are technically representing the United States in this war...
"Ah good. Now I'm on the internet clearly saying I like tranny cleavage. This shouldn't get me harassed at all." -- Lothar of the Hill People
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
only if its used on imprisoned veterans.
I have no problem with religious book flushing done by civilians in protest. But soldiers acting in an official capacity doing it is wrong.
I can agree with that, but your earlier metaphor didn't really say that.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
only if its used on imprisoned veterans.
I have no problem with religious book flushing done by civilians in protest. But soldiers acting in an official capacity doing it is wrong.
I can agree with that, but your earlier metaphor didn't really say that.
Just listening to people quote the Quran and the Bible is torture for me, G-man. I'm curious what you think of the 'protected speech' angle of my post. If it works for Flag Burning it works for Q'uran Flushing. Wouldn't you agree?
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If you could get the information to prevent a future terrorist attack either on the level of the London bombings or 9-11 by flushing a terrorists copy of the Quran down the toilet, would you?
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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