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UID, please post all your political bull-shit in this thread. If people want to discuss this side of the issue they will meet you here, but it bothers me when half the people on the board are still unawares that one of our own was hit and may need help or may have friends or family who do, because the post got burried in artical after article. There are those on this board who don't care about politics and just want to discuss the tradagy in non-political terms. If you really care you would be willing to seperate the conversations. everyone who wants to discuss it with you can do so here. People may even take you seriously if you show the slightest level of compassion and do this. Thank you.
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I don't really see the necessity of this thread wbam when anyone with a brain knows it was an act of god and completely out of our hands. it was a terrible tragedy.....now it's time to help people and clean up the mess. making this thread gives credibility to the retards/assholes who blame humans (specifically the president)
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Quote:
PJP said:
I don't really see the necessity of this thread wbam when anyone with a brain knows it was an act of god and completely out of our hands. it was a terrible tragedy.....now it's time to help people and clean up the mess. making this thread gives credibility to the retards/assholes who blame humans (specifically the president)
Yea, but those retards are out there. I just want them OUT of the main thread. If you read my post you'll see I'm persoanly unconcerned with the blame game. This thread is like when two people start arguing at a funeral and you ask them to go out-side.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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I for one blame the Germans.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
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But you start a thread about who's to blame for it?
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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Quote:
Uschi said:
I for one blame the Germans.
and the Joker.... like when he raped Barbara Gordon.........'cause he did.
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Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Quote:
PJP said:
I don't really see the necessity of this thread wbam when anyone with a brain knows it was an act of god and completely out of our hands. it was a terrible tragedy.....now it's time to help people and clean up the mess. making this thread gives credibility to the retards/assholes who blame humans (specifically the president)
I'm interested in the cause, if not who to blame at this juncture, primarily because I'm still getting my head around how it all happened.
I understand that the system was not spec for a Category 4 hurricane, and that N.O. is below sea level next to a big lake. Did N.O. have an evacuation plan in place or anything like that in the event of a big blow? Cities in volcanic areas have them...
What triggers the governor to send in National Guardsmen? Is there a plan in place (generally speaking, not just for N.O.) to send them into cities post-natural disaster to prevent looting and lawlessness? And why aren't National Guardsmen deployed all throughout the Astrodome at this point in time?
What's with all the gangs with AK-47s? Does New Orleans have lax gun laws?
From my own selfish perspective, why are foreign consular officials being denied access to the city to help their nationals leave town? Is that standard procedure?
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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
Quote:
PJP said:
I don't really see the necessity of this thread wbam when anyone with a brain knows it was an act of god and completely out of our hands. it was a terrible tragedy.....now it's time to help people and clean up the mess. making this thread gives credibility to the retards/assholes who blame humans (specifically the president)
I'm interested in the cause, if not who to blame at this juncture, primarily because I'm still getting my head around how it all happened.
I understand that the system was not spec for a Category 4 hurricane, and that N.O. is below sea level next to a big lake. Did N.O. have an evacuation plan in place or anything like that in the event of a big blow? Cities in volcanic areas have them...
What triggers the governor to send in National Guardsmen? Is there a plan in place (generally speaking, not just for N.O.) to send them into cities post-natural disaster to prevent looting and lawlessness? And why aren't National Guardsmen deployed all throughout the Astrodome at this point in time?
What's with all the gangs with AK-47s? Does New Orleans have lax gun laws?
From my own selfish perspective, why are foreign consular officials being denied access to the city to help their nationals leave town? Is that standard procedure?
those are valid questions Dave......I think wbams purpose was to try and "call out" the people who are blindly blaming Bush for an act of nature simply because they hate him.
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The four Bush-bashing issues as I understand them are:
1. the initial help went to whites. Bush clearly isn't responsible for that.
2. the help overall was too slow. I think Bush has to take some blame for that, and appears to have done so in his apology, but he's hardly unique - the Japanese reponse to the Great Hanshin Earthquake in Kobe in 1995 (date?) was equally lamentable. Sometimes governments seemed to underestimate the severity of natural disasters.
3. Bush flew in for a few hours, said a few words in front of cameras, then flew out by helicopter to the comfort of the White House. Bad PR by his handlers. The man should have stayed for a few days to share the pain.
4. the anti-flooding system which might have saved N.O. was underfunded by Federal agencies, as part of a general cutback because of a) the deficit caused by tax cuts and/or b) the drain on federal government resources caused by the occupation of Iraq. I have insufficient information on that issue, and suspect the reality is too complex to be reduced to such a summary.
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You know who I think is ultimately responsible for this?
God.
Take it up with him. Now, shut the hell up and stop bickering. There's people dying, and that's all that matters.
Damn you all.
"Ah good. Now I'm on the internet clearly saying I like tranny cleavage. This shouldn't get me harassed at all." -- Lothar of the Hill People
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as far as #3 goes......there are experts that argued that Bush shouldn't go down there at all. The reaon being for this is obviously when he does go down many local authorities and national guardsmen will be taken away from important stuff like feeding and evacuating the victims so they can go an provide the proper security to Bush.
I'm glad he went down for a little bit, but I disagree that he should stay for a longer than that.....it would hurt the effort more than help it.
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Quote:
PCG342 said:
You know who I think is ultimately responsible for this?
God.
Take it up with him. Now, shut the hell up and stop bickering. There's people dying, and that's all that matters.
Damn you all.
Best post you've ever made
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Quote:
PCG342 said:
You know who I think is ultimately responsible for this?
God.
Take it up with him. Now, shut the hell up and stop bickering. There's people dying, and that's all that matters.
Damn you all.
But this thread was expressly established for those of us who want to ask questions about what is going on and want to discuss the causes of it. If you're offended by the content, don't look. Our sympathy for the people suffering in New Orleans isn't somehow diluted by our desire to want to talk about it.
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Quote:
PJP said:
as far as #3 goes......there are experts that argued that Bush shouldn't go down there at all. The reaon being for this is obviously when he does go down many local authorities and national guardsmen will be taken away from important stuff like feeding and evacuating the victims so they can go an provide the proper security to Bush.
I'm glad he went down for a little bit, but I disagree that he should stay for a longer than that.....it would hurt the effort more than help it.
Fair call.
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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
Quote:
PCG342 said:
You know who I think is ultimately responsible for this?
God.
Take it up with him. Now, shut the hell up and stop bickering. There's people dying, and that's all that matters.
Damn you all.
But this thread was expressly established for those of us who want to ask questions about what is going on and want to discuss the causes of it. If you're offended by the content, don't look. Our sympathy for the people suffering in New Orleans isn't somehow diluted by our desire to want to talk about it.
So far, all I've seen is one big political flamewar. I mean, it started off sincere, but then, things went downhill. Fast. Besides, ultimately, what causes anything? Who [or what, depending on how you look at it] is responsible for all that goes on?
You want to know what two things I blame? God, and idiocy. God created idiocy, so I'm going to stick with God. And what does He do without some hidden purpose, some unforseen moral? And besides that my dog is licking peanut butter off my pee pee right now.
Last edited by PJP; 2005-09-03 4:20 PM.
"Ah good. Now I'm on the internet clearly saying I like tranny cleavage. This shouldn't get me harassed at all." -- Lothar of the Hill People
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Sometimes yelling & finger pointing gets more acheived. Everybody is now watching the folks in charge. I expect that the response from the government concerning all the poor folk blasted by Katrina will be generous. Far more than if everyone just kept their mouth shut.
Fair play!
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Profile for Matter-eater Man Email chriszick@aol.com Member # 801 Name Matter-eater Man Title professional poster Total Posts 1300 Homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chriszick/czanimal/homepage/home.html Occupation Scanner Hobbies books,comics & DCD Location minneapolis MN Bio ICQ Number Gender AOL IM name Registered on Sat Jun 07 2003 12:00 PM
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I'd just like to point out I did NOT move this thread. Seriously.
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I, on the other hand, DID.
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It's OK just 'cause it's the OT forum doesn't mean we can't be serious here.
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Or we could discuss this in the original Katrina thread, as people were doing already.
I'm PMing Rob and asking him to put it back, but only because Dave and PJP helped turn this thread into a serious topic. It'll probably spiral into silliness before Rob gets to it, though.
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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
What's with all the gangs with AK-47s? Does New Orleans have lax gun laws?
The problem in this country has never been the extent of gun laws, but the ability of law enforcement to practically enforce them. Kalashnikovs are very illegal, but if you know where to look you can still get ahold of one. Because we're so busy scurrying to pass new laws that we haven't bothered to figure out how we're gonna enforce the ones we already have.
But that's another topic entirely.
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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
The four Bush-bashing issues as I understand them are:
1. the initial help went to whites. Bush clearly isn't responsible for that.
2. the help overall was too slow. I think Bush has to take some blame for that, and appears to have done so in his apology, but he's hardly unique - the Japanese reponse to the Great Hanshin Earthquake in Kobe in 1995 (date?) was equally lamentable. Sometimes governments seemed to underestimate the severity of natural disasters.
3. Bush flew in for a few hours, said a few words in front of cameras, then flew out by helicopter to the comfort of the White House. Bad PR by his handlers. The man should have stayed for a few days to share the pain.
4. the anti-flooding system which might have saved N.O. was underfunded by Federal agencies, as part of a general cutback because of a) the deficit caused by tax cuts and/or b) the drain on federal government resources caused by the occupation of Iraq. I have insufficient information on that issue, and suspect the reality is too complex to be reduced to such a summary.
Basically. People aren't blaming Bush for the hurricane. That's just spin. People are blaming Bush for how he chose to allocate federal funds before the hurricane (as a country we didn't have a lot of money set aside for something like this) and his actions and apparent lack of great concern after.
Personally, I have mixed reviews.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
The four Bush-bashing issues as I understand them are:
1. the initial help went to whites. Bush clearly isn't responsible for that.
2. the help overall was too slow. I think Bush has to take some blame for that, and appears to have done so in his apology, but he's hardly unique - the Japanese reponse to the Great Hanshin Earthquake in Kobe in 1995 (date?) was equally lamentable. Sometimes governments seemed to underestimate the severity of natural disasters.
3. Bush flew in for a few hours, said a few words in front of cameras, then flew out by helicopter to the comfort of the White House. Bad PR by his handlers. The man should have stayed for a few days to share the pain.
4. the anti-flooding system which might have saved N.O. was underfunded by Federal agencies, as part of a general cutback because of a) the deficit caused by tax cuts and/or b) the drain on federal government resources caused by the occupation of Iraq. I have insufficient information on that issue, and suspect the reality is too complex to be reduced to such a summary.
Basically. People aren't blaming Bush for the hurricane. That's just spin. People are blaming Bush for how he chose to allocate federal funds before the hurricane (as a country we didn't have a lot of money set aside for something like this) and his actions and apparent lack of great concern after.
Personally, I have mixed reviews.
when you say it the way you and Dave do it is mature and reasonable and valid. It is smart to question government.......any government.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Basically. People aren't blaming Bush for the hurricane. That's just spin. People are blaming Bush for how he chose to allocate federal funds before the hurricane (as a country we didn't have a lot of money set aside for something like this) and his actions and apparent lack of great concern after.
I think this thread should be only for people like you who only want to debate facts and not sling political stuff. I will ask you in response to your point, do you think that Bush re-allocated funds for this to other places. By this I assume you are reffering to the Iraq war as the left wingers have? Do you think that every Senator and Congressman who voted for the latest highway and energy bills, as well as President Bush are actually responsible? The latest highway bill and energy bills spent billions on pet projects. I would hope when this is all over with the focus will be on the goverment spending money on essential safety and security, instead of pet projects. I think any Senator that voted for a pet project, or Jesse Jackson who has asked for reperations, or anyone else that has asked for a piece of the pie before and didnt prioritize this should look in the mirror before trying to pick a political fight.
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
I think this thread should be only for people like you who only want to debate facts and not sling political stuff. I will ask you in response to your point, do you think that Bush re-allocated funds for this to other places. By this I assume you are reffering to the Iraq war as the left wingers have? Do you think that every Senator and Congressman who voted for the latest highway and energy bills, as well as President Bush are actually responsible? The latest highway bill and energy bills spent billions on pet projects. I would hope when this is all over with the focus will be on the goverment spending money on essential safety and security, instead of pet projects. I think any Senator that voted for a pet project, or Jesse Jackson who has asked for reperations, or anyone else that has asked for a piece of the pie before and didnt prioritize this should look in the mirror before trying to pick a political fight.
  
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you can say alot with the emoticons.
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it shouldnt hurt to be a emoticon.
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If emoticons are outlawed then only Nature Boyz will have emoticons! 
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Next thing I know, you'll be telling me there is no spoon.
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
I think this thread should be only for people like you who only want to debate facts and not sling political stuff. I will ask you in response to your point, do you think that Bush re-allocated funds for this to other places.
FEMA, the agency set up to respond to natural disasters, was placed within the huge Department of Homeland Security after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. It was a move that made perfect sense, since such disasters are simply an inhuman threat to security. What doesn't make sense is the way it's been run since 9-11.
Haddow, FEMA's ex-chief of staff recently pointed out that there are no managers on any level of the DHS equipped to handle something like this. None of them were ready. Bill Lokey, New Orleans coordinator for FEMA, was asked why FEMA had been so slow to respond in the wake of Katrina. He was asked if the scope was just too big. This is what he said:
"I'll make it simple for you: Yes, ma'am."
New Orleans is a fishbowl. Anybody with an I.Q. slightly higher than an Alaskan Malamute could see that it was a disaster waiting to happen.
"Yes, ma'am" is not an acceptable answer.
States get about $1.1 billion each year total from Homeland Security to combat terrorism. How much money do they get to help prepare for natural disasters like Katrina? $180 million a year. Total.
That $180 million a year is for EVERYTHING disaster related, including structural preparation, education, and evacuation. Also of note, most of the 1.1 billion is given under conditions that specifically exclude spending it on non-terrorism related stuff.
That's grossly unsat.
But the lack of funds isn't just Bush's fault. As JLA has pointed out, Bush couldn't have come anywhere close to preparing those cities in time structurally, no matter how much money he funnelled. But natural disasters happen four times a month, on average. Florida saw four hurricanes last year. Officials have known for decades that New Orleans was vulnerable to hurricanes and flooding. Let me repeat: It's a fish bowl, stupid! This isn't rocket science. More money should have been allocated by the Bushes, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Ford, and so on and so forth. More money should have been allocated after the Sumatra-Andaman earthquake and tsunami. More money should have DEFINITELY been allocated after Charley, Frances, Ivan, and Jeanne (not to mention the tropical storms). That's four hurricanes in about a month's time. We get four natural disasters PER MONTH. $180 million is not enough.
Just last year, FEMA hired IEM Inc., a private company, to help conduct an eight-day drill for a fictional Category 5 hurricane in New Orleans named Pam. It was massive. It included staging a helicopter evacuation of the Superdome, a prediction of 15 feet of water in parts of the city and the evacuation of 1-million people.
Nice.
But the part where IEM was supposed to resolve unresolved problems, such as evacuating sick and injured people and housing thousands of stranded residents, never happened.
Why?
Because the funding was cut.
Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
By this I assume you are reffering to the Iraq war as the left wingers have? Do you think that every Senator and Congressman who voted for the latest highway and energy bills, as well as President Bush are actually responsible? The latest highway bill and energy bills spent billions on pet projects. I would hope when this is all over with the focus will be on the goverment spending money on essential safety and security, instead of pet projects. I think any Senator that voted for a pet project, or Jesse Jackson who has asked for reperations, or anyone else that has asked for a piece of the pie before and didnt prioritize this should look in the mirror before trying to pick a political fight.
Actually, if Jesse Jackson's request for reperations had been granted (HAHA! Funny) many of the residents stuck in New Orleans MAY not have been so uninformed and ill-prepared. Heck, many of them MAY not have even been in harm's way.
But that's a silly point.
You're right. Bush isn't the only one to blame, and Jesse Jackson should shut his yap. And the latest energy bill is laughable.
Congress is in charge of federal spending. That's their branch. I blame them first for a lot of this. But President Bush IS our leader, and as our leader he's asked Congress for a whole lot of money over the years. And he's gotten it. He's gotten it because he, unlike Jackson, is the President of the United States.
And I can't help but think things would have gone a whole lot smoother if all the people in charge, Bush largely included, had partitioned my tax money to places a little closer to home.
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but what about the emoticons?
also you make a lot of valid points.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
I think this thread should be only for people like you who only want to debate facts and not sling political stuff. I will ask you in response to your point, do you think that Bush re-allocated funds for this to other places.
FEMA, the agency set up to respond to natural disasters, was placed within the huge Department of Homeland Security after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. It was a move that made perfect sense, since such disasters are simply an inhuman threat to security. What doesn't make sense is the way it's been run since 9-11.
Haddow, FEMA's ex-chief of staff recently pointed out that there are no managers on any level of the DHS equipped to handle something like this. None of them were ready. Bill Lokey, New Orleans coordinator for FEMA, was asked why FEMA had been so slow to respond in the wake of Katrina. He was asked if the scope was just too big. This is what he said:
"I'll make it simple for you: Yes, ma'am."
New Orleans is a fishbowl. Anybody with an I.Q. slightly higher than an Alaskan Malamute could see that it was a disaster waiting to happen.
"Yes, ma'am" is not an acceptable answer.
States get about $1.1 billion each year total from Homeland Security to combat terrorism. How much money do they get to help prepare for natural disasters like Katrina? $180 million a year. Total.
That $180 million a year is for EVERYTHING disaster related, including structural preparation, education, and evacuation. Also of note, most of the 1.1 billion is given under conditions that specifically exclude spending it on non-terrorism related stuff.
That's grossly unsat.
But the lack of funds isn't just Bush's fault. As JLA has pointed out, Bush couldn't have come anywhere close to preparing those cities in time structurally, no matter how much money he funnelled. But natural disasters happen four times a month, on average. Florida saw four hurricanes last year. Officials have known for decades that New Orleans was vulnerable to hurricanes and flooding. Let me repeat: It's a fish bowl, stupid! This isn't rocket science. More money should have been allocated by the Bushes, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Ford, and so on and so forth. More money should have been allocated after the Sumatra-Andaman earthquake and tsunami. More money should have DEFINITELY been allocated after Charley, Frances, Ivan, and Jeanne (not to mention the tropical storms). That's four hurricanes in about a month's time. We get four natural disasters PER MONTH. $180 million is not enough.
Just last year, FEMA hired IEM Inc., a private company, to help conduct an eight-day drill for a fictional Category 5 hurricane in New Orleans named Pam. It was massive. It included staging a helicopter evacuation of the Superdome, a prediction of 15 feet of water in parts of the city and the evacuation of 1-million people.
Nice.
But the part where IEM was supposed to resolve unresolved problems, such as evacuating sick and injured people and housing thousands of stranded residents, never happened.
Why?
Because the funding was cut.
If the Hurricane that hit was more powerful and bigger at about level 5 whilst New Orleans had level 4 levees rather than 3, would people still be blaming Bush so much?
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Joined: Oct 2003
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Or we could discuss this in the original Katrina thread, as people were doing already.
I'm PMing Rob and asking him to put it back, but only because Dave and PJP helped turn this thread into a serious topic. It'll probably spiral into silliness before Rob gets to it, though.
No, i think this is a good place for it. Because after all the reason i wanted the discussion somewhere other than the original thread was because I find the politising of this tradgedy to be offensive.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
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Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Pariah said:
If the Hurricane that hit was more powerful and bigger at about level 5 whilst New Orleans had level 4 levees rather than 3, would people still be blaming Bush so much?
I don't understand your question.
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Joined: Jun 2005
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toe sucking pervert 25+ posts
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toe sucking pervert 25+ posts
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I know I'm not to blame, since it wasn't my fault.
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Hell, Bush probably reacted slow on purpose just to push the gas prices up that much higher...and anyone tells me he really has us in Iraq to further Democracy and oppose Bin Laden and his ilk instead of pushing the price of oil up really needs to look at the price of gas at their neighborhood gas station!
-----once over and twice twisted---------
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Hip To Be Square 15000+ posts
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Hip To Be Square 15000+ posts
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Who woulda though posts would be deleted from the off topics forum!
Tis a sad day!
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