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DNC Leader Howard Dean on Iraq:
- “[The] Idea That We’re Going To Win The War In Iraq Is An Idea Which Is Just Plain Wrong.”
- “I’ve Seen This Before In My Life. This Is The Same Situation We Had In Vietnam.”
- The White House Wants Us To Have A Permanent Commitment To Iraq. This Is An Iraqi Problem”
- “I Think We Need A Strategic Redeployment Over A Period Of Two Years … Bring The 80,000 National Guard And Reserve Troops Home Immediately. They Don’t Belong In A Conflict Like This Anyway. …
Even if you accept the premise that the decision to go to war was flawed, even if you accept the premise that the President is prosecuting the war ineffectively, is it a good idea for the leader of the party to compare the Iraq war (and, presumably, the actions of the troops there) to Vietnam? Should the DNC leader be announcing that we shouldn't be in Iraq at all?
And, most importantly, what sort of propaganda victory/encouragement does it give the terrorists (and what sort of slam is it to the troops) to announce publicly that we can't and won't win the war?
Not surprisingly, Dean's counterpart in the Republicans, Ken Mehlman, thinks the message Dean is sending is a bad one:
In predicting that America will lose the war in Iraq, Howard Dean is the latest national Democrat leader to embrace retreat and defeat in the central front in the War on Terror.
His outrageous prediction sends the wrong message to our troops, the enemy, and the Iraqi people just 10 days before historic elections.
Democrats across the nation should stand up and reject the pessimism of their chairman and strategy of defeat by their Congressional leaders.
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Well, first I think Dean is correct. Technically speaking, the war part ended when Saddam and his cronies were removed from power. Exactly what you'd call the Iraq business now, I haven't the foggiest. Conflict, military action, I don't know.
Knutreturns said: Spoken like the true Greatest RDCW Champ!
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Quote:
the G-man said:
“[The] Idea That We’re Going To Win The War In Iraq Is An Idea Which Is Just Plain Wrong.”
“I’ve Seen This Before In My Life. This Is The Same Situation We Had In Vietnam.”
The White House Wants Us To Have A Permanent Commitment To Iraq. This Is An Iraqi Problem”
“I Think We Need A Strategic Redeployment Over A Period Of Two Years … Bring The 80,000 National Guard And Reserve Troops Home Immediately. They Don’t Belong In A Conflict Like This Anyway. …
]
Someone has to say it! The Emperor has no clothes!
Image Edited for Work Safety
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-12-07 5:42 PM.
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But Kerry said that teh Democrats weren't calling for a withdrawl, but an estimated timetable for success. I just don't know who to believe anymore. 
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
[Even if you accept the premise that the decision to go to war was flawed, even if you accept the premise that the President is prosecuting the war ineffectively, is it a good idea for the leader of the party to compare the Iraq war (and, presumably, the actions of the troops there) to Vietnam? Should the DNC leader be announcing that we shouldn't be in Iraq at all?
And, most importantly, what sort of propaganda victory/encouragement does it give the terrorists (and what sort of slam is it to the troops) to announce publicly that we can't and won't win the war?
You presume that NOT saying anything publicly discourages Terrorists. You are presuming that Terrorists operate with the same kinds of rational thinking that those of us who are Non-Terrorists think.
Terrorists, with their dogmatic commitment to their peculiar ideation will find encouragement in any course of action taken by their Enemies.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
But Kerry said that teh Democrats weren't calling for a withdrawl, but an estimated timetable for success. I just don't know who to believe anymore.
At what point did you ever believe anything Kerry said? And lets see the quote where he says what you say he says, pretty please.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
But Kerry said that teh Democrats weren't calling for a withdrawl, but an estimated timetable for success. I just don't know who to believe anymore.
Certainly not the Bush Administration!
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On the scale of 1 to knee-jerk reaction, that would definitely score higher than a 1.
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Ya know if the GOP hadn't sprung on Dean's comments I wouldn't have even known what Dean had said. If the concern is truly about the troops why would the President put a spotlight on comments that he deems harmful to the troops?
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
But Kerry said that teh Democrats weren't calling for a withdrawl, but an estimated timetable for success. I just don't know who to believe anymore.
At what point did you ever believe anything Kerry said? And lets see the quote where he says what you say he says, pretty please.
Seriously. he said it on teh response to the Presidents speach. I saw it on TV. If you know where current speaches are typically transcribed then point mme to it. Do you doubt he said it? Would it illustrate a level of inconsistancy that would surprise you and therefore you reason that I may have taken it out of context? If so I'll try all the harder to find it online.
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Ooh, here's a snipit rom teh washington Post: Quote:
he Democratic criticism came in response to a presidential speech at the U.S. Naval Academy today and the release of a new 35-page White House document entitled, "National Strategy for Victory in Iraq." In the speech, Bush denounced critics who he said want "an artificial timetable" for drawing down the nearly 160,000 U.S. troops now in Iraq. Bush said that "setting an artificial deadline to withdraw" would send a message that America is "weak" and "unreliable," would signal enemies in Iraq to wait out the United States and would "vindicate terrorist tactics of beheading and mass murder."
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
...
Seriously. he said it on teh response to the Presidents speach. I saw it on TV. If you know where current speaches are typically transcribed then point mme to it. Do you doubt he said it? Would it illustrate a level of inconsistancy that would surprise you and therefore you reason that I may have taken it out of context? If so I'll try all the harder to find it online.
Considering the grief I get when quoting with a linked source, I guess I expect that you would want to provide a quote & link.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Even if you accept the premise that the decision to go to war was flawed, even if you accept the premise that the President is prosecuting the war ineffectively, is it a good idea for the leader of the party to compare the Iraq war (and, presumably, the actions of the troops there) to Vietnam? Should the DNC leader be announcing that we shouldn't be in Iraq at all?
And, most importantly, what sort of propaganda victory/encouragement does it give the terrorists (and what sort of slam is it to the troops) to announce publicly that we can't and won't win the war?
Reuters reports from Dubai:
Al Qaeda's deputy leader Ayman al-Zawahri urged militants to attack oil targets in Muslim states and said Osama bin Laden was still leading its battle against the West. . . .
Zawahri said the United States had suffered a defeat in Iraq and it was only a matter of time before it pulled out its troops.
"Iraq is a catastrophe for America and Americans will leave, it will only be a matter of time.
"I say to Bush: You entered Iraq with lies, you will lose Iraq and lie about it and you will leave with the pretext that you have completed your mission. . . . America only has to decide on the number of (troops) it wishes to lose before withdrawing."
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Quote:
Ayman al-Zawahri said:
"I say to Bush: You entered Iraq with lies, you will lose Iraq and lie about it and you will leave with the pretext that you have completed your mission. . . . America only has to decide on the number of (troops) it wishes to lose before withdrawing."
It sounds to me like Mr. Zawahri has a firm grasp on reality.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Reuters reports from Dubai:
... said the United States had suffered a defeat in Iraq and it was only a matter of time before it pulled out its troops.
"Iraq is a catastrophe for America and Americans will leave, it will only be a matter of time.
"I say to Bush: You entered Iraq with lies, you will lose Iraq and lie about it and you will leave with the pretext that you have completed your mission. . . . America only has to decide on the number of (troops) it wishes to lose before withdrawing."
I actually had to look at the remarks a second time to see that it was Zawahri who said them, and not one of the Democrats in Washington.
At first glance I thought the article was quoting Howard Dean. Or possibly John Kerry, quoted just a few posts above.
But the remarks could just as easily be Nancy Pelosi, Wesley Clark, Congressman Murtha, or hundreds of other Democrats, who daily make similar remarks.
Liberal remarks that falsely undermine popular opinion, with false pretenses that undermine the morale of our troops.
And through Democrats' oversympathetic and wrongheaded compassion for our enemy, these alleged leaders of our country align themselves against the United States.
Providing aid and comfort to our enemy, spreading the false propaganda of our enemy.
I've said it before: These Democrats would destroy the country itself just to spite Bush and the Republicans.
And Howard Dean, John Kerry, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi and the rest are doing precisely that.
Every. Single. Day.
- from Do Racists have lower IQ's...
Liberals who bemoan discrimination, intolerance, restraint of Constitutional freedoms, and promotion of hatred toward various abberant minorities, have absolutely no problem with discriminating against, being intolerant of, restricting Constitutional freedoms of, and directing hate-filled scapegoat rhetoric against conservatives.
EXACTLY what they accuse Republicans/conservatives of doing, is EXACTLY what liberals/Democrats do themselves, to those who oppose their beliefs.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Speaking of Kerry:
Kerry appeared on CBS's "Face the Nation" on Sunday and accused the troops of the same sort of "atrocities" he accused his fellow soldiers of during Vietnam: "going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the--of--the historical customs, religious customs."
I guess a haughty, French looking, leopard can't change its spots after all.
What G-man didn't quote, Quote:
...terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the--of--the historical customs,
religious customs. Whether you like it or not...
SCHIEFFER: Yeah.
Sen. KERRY: ...Iraqis should be doing that. And after all of these two and a half years, with all of the talk of
210,000 people trained, there just is no excuse for not transferring more of that authority.
You may have seen news coverage where our soldiers have done exactly what Kerry mentions. It happens when insurgents attack our troops & go run & hide. Our troops have no choice but to go looking for them in nearby homes. Kerry is just saying that it should be Iraqi troops doing that by now. I think most of us would agree that having the trained Iraqis start doing more of their own fighting is preferable than using our troops.
Fair play!
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
Ayman al-Zawahri said:
"I say to Bush: You entered Iraq with lies, you will lose Iraq and lie about it and you will leave with the pretext that you have completed your mission. . . . America only has to decide on the number of (troops) it wishes to lose before withdrawing."
It sounds to me like Mr. Zawahri has a firm grasp on reality.
So MJ OPENLY agrees with terrorists.... It's also good to see that al-Zawahri has his fax up and running so he can get the fresh DNC talking points.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
What G-man didn't quote, "terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the--of--the historical customs,
religious customs...Iraqis should be doing that. And after all of these two and a half years, with all of the talk of
210,000 people trained, there just is no excuse for not transferring more of that authority" Kerry is just saying that it should be Iraqi troops doing that by now. I think most of us would agree that having the trained Iraqis start doing more of their own fighting is preferable than using our troops.
In other words, you're saying that that Kerry isn't against "terrorizing women and children." but that he just thinks Iraqis should be doing it?
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
Ayman al-Zawahri said:
"I say to Bush: You entered Iraq with lies, you will lose Iraq and lie about it and you will leave with the pretext that you have completed your mission. . . . America only has to decide on the number of (troops) it wishes to lose before withdrawing."
It sounds to me like Mr. Zawahri has a firm grasp on reality.
So MJ OPENLY agrees with terrorists.... It's also good to see that al-Zawahri has his fax up and running so he can get the fresh DNC talking points.
If he's right, he's right. If you want to delude yourself that we're winning, go ahead. Anti-war Americans support the troops by bringing them home.
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:Anti-war Americans support the troops by bringing them home.
Telling them that they are failures who can't do their jobs is, perhaps, not exactly support.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:Anti-war Americans support the troops by bringing them home.
Telling them that they are failures who can't do their jobs is, perhaps, not exactly support.
Sure beats bringing them home in flag draped boxes. 
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Tell that to everyone who came home from Vietnam to be universally disowned.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
...
In other words, you're saying that that Kerry isn't against "terrorizing women and children." but that he just thinks Iraqis should be doing it?
Nope read it again G-man. I'll just repost it again with the parts you took out & make bold the pertinent bits.
What G-man didn't quote,
Quote:------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen. KERRY:...terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the--of--the historical customs,
religious customs. Whether you like it or not Iraqis should be doing that. And after all of these two and a half years, with all of the talk of
210,000 people trained, there just is no excuse for not transferring more of that authority.------------------------------------------------------------------------
You may have seen news coverage where our soldiers have done exactly what Kerry mentions. It happens when insurgents attack our troops & go run & hide. Our troops have no choice but to go looking for them in nearby homes. Kerry is just saying that it should be Iraqi troops doing that by now. I think most of us would agree that having the trained Iraqis start doing more of their own fighting is preferable than using our troops.
Fair play!
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Tell that to everyone who came home from Vietnam to be universally disowned.
You talkin' to me, Sammitch????? 
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Telling them that they are failures who can't do their jobs is, perhaps, not exactly support.
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Sure beats bringing them home in flag draped boxes.
I find it...perhaps...telling...how much you "support" the troops when you put a "smiley face" face after speaking of dead U.S. soldiers and before posting pitcures of their coffins.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
Telling them that they are failures who can't do their jobs is, perhaps, not exactly support.
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Sure beats bringing them home in flag draped boxes.
I find it...perhaps...telling...how much you "support" the troops when you put a "smiley face" face after speaking of dead U.S. soldiers and before posting pitcures of their coffins.
Gosh, G-man! I thought bringing them home alive was a happy thing 
You and Sammitch think they'd prefer to come home dead
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Bringing them home alive while invalidating everything they did overseas? Yeah, that's gonna make 'em real glad to be here.
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Maybe its me, but perhaps if the Democratic leadership (as opposed to people like Joe Liebrman) had more to say than the military is broken, a bunch of failures destined to lose, and terrorizing Iraqis, it would be easier to believe they do, in fact, support the troops.
It also might help if that same leadership (as opposed to people like Joe Lieberman), and their core constituents like the ACLU didn't try to disfranchise servicemen and wage war on military recruitment and ROTC and if they nominated someone who didn't rise to fame by slandering veterans.
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Bringing them home alive while invalidating everything they did overseas? Yeah, that's gonna make 'em real glad to be here.
So what are you saying Sammitch? Off with their heads?
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Bringing them home alive while invalidating everything they did overseas? Yeah, that's gonna make 'em real glad to be here.
So what are you saying Sammitch? Off with their heads?
I'm saying your premise that the best thing we can do for the troops is bring them home whether they're done over there or not isn't taking other perspectives into account.
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Bringing them home alive while invalidating everything they did overseas? Yeah, that's gonna make 'em real glad to be here.
So what are you saying Sammitch? Off with their heads?
I'm saying your premise that the best thing we can do for the troops is bring them home whether they're done over there or not isn't taking other perspectives into account.
What I said is not a premise. It's a conclusion. I reached it after considering other options or 'perspectives' as you say. It's called a decision making process.
Have you ever undertaken a project where things didn't work out the way you planned? When it was clear that the cost of completion was greater than you were willing to spend, did you drop the project? May be settle for a lesser outcome than you'd hoped for in the beginning? That's not cowardice; it's rational decision making.
The troops will get over it.
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Thanks to his latest "meltdown," Howard Dean has just become the new posterboy for the... Republican Party. Via Drudge:
The DRUDGE REPORT has learned from a top GOP operative that the Republican National Committee will provide state parties with a web video prior to release tomorrow afternoon that shows a white flag waving over images of Democrat leaders making anti-war remarks.
The ad is in response to the controversial comments Democratic Party Chairman Howard Dean and 2004 Democratic Presidential nominee John Kerry made earlier in the week. A Democratic strategist who had the web ad described to her said, "This is way over the top but we have no one to blame but Dean, Kerry and others who continue to pander to the anti-war activists within our party."
The video can be downloaded here (WMV). I could forgive the Democratic leadership--if you want to call it that--for being anti-war, if being against the war that was truly their case. But, as noted, on the "Who is Lying About Iraq" thread, it isn't. The neo-copperheads do not care about the American military or the 27 million Iraqi people they would abandon with their soft bigotry, and in many cases, they have nothing but disdain for the men and women who guard their freedoms and the freedom of others. These "neocops" have one over-riding goal: to defeat George Bush and the Republican Party, no matter what it takes, or who has to die. The want badly to lose Iraq in the hopes that they can score political points from the blood of the Iraqi people and the Democrat-driven defeat of American servicemen. The defeatists deserve defeat.
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So according to G-man this isn't about supporting the troops but trying to make it appear that the Dems don't support the troops. Politics over patriotism
Fair play!
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Here's a crazy idea, MEM.
If the Democrats don't want Republicans to point out that democrats say silly, defeatist, even dangerous, things about the war and the troops....
THEY SHOULD STOP SAYING SUCH THINGS!
Today's Democratic leadership (as opposed to guys like Lieberman) feel free to say anything they want about this war--including John Kerry's recent claims of war atrocities by the troops, and Howard Dean's feeling that the war is unwinnable--as long as they follow up with, "But I support the troops!"
Every time I hear them say they support the troops I think of that "Seinfeld" episode in which Jerry and George were suspected of being gay but would say, "Not that there's anything wrong with that!"
Both phrases ring hollow and insincere, calculated to give them coverage. Seinfeld's "coverage" was funny because you knew he didn't really mean it, and such is becoming the case with the Democrats.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Here's a crazy idea, MEM.
If the Democrats don't want Republicans to point out that democrats say silly, defeatist, even dangerous, things about the war and the troops....
THEY SHOULD STOP SAYING SUCH THINGS!
So your all done supporting the troops & want to make some political hay? Good for your party but what do you think that does to troop moral? Wasn't it Bush that said the war on terror could never be won? Guess it's only hurts the troops if a Dem says anything like that.
Fair play!
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Someone's not listening... 
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
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1500+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657 |
Quote:
the G-man said:
Here's a crazy idea, MEM.
If the Democrats don't want Republicans to point out that democrats say silly, defeatist, even dangerous, things about the war and the troops....
THEY SHOULD STOP SAYING SUCH THINGS!
Today's Democratic leadership (as opposed to guys like Lieberman) feel free to say anything they want about this war--including John Kerry's recent claims of war atrocities by the troops, and Howard Dean's feeling that the war is unwinnable--as long as they follow up with, "But I support the troops!"
Every time I hear them say they support the troops I think of that "Seinfeld" episode in which Jerry and George were suspected of being gay but would say, "Not that there's anything wrong with that!"
Both phrases ring hollow and insincere, calculated to give them coverage. Seinfeld's "coverage" was funny because you knew he didn't really mean it, and such is becoming the case with the Democrats.
G-man has wrapped himself in the flag! Anyone have a match? 
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
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1500+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657 |
Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
Someone's not listening...
Maybe you should say something. 
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