Quote: Rob Kamphausen said: offensive stats aside...
how much clout do you feel a gold-glove calibur defense carries? and also, how much clout do you feel the typical "team-leader" intangible aspects carry?
both in how the mvp award is awarded and how you feel it should be awarded?
Gold glove caliber defense certainly carries some weight. Not as much weight as offense, but definitely some weight, and especially so if it comes at a key defensive position(the middle spots: catcher, second, short, centerfield). If you want a statistical perspective, through the win share system, the average player derives around 15-20% of his overall value through defense(the number is slightly lower among the elite players). Now, if we're talking about Jeter, there is some debate on just whether or not he really is gold-glover caliber, but it seems apparent to me that Jeter has improved greatly over the years, and, this year, has provided more value with his glove than most(perhaps all) of the sluggers who are offensively superior.
Intangibles...are difficult to define. "Leadership", especially, is a quality that, to be used attributively, relies almost exclusively on word of mouth, and on faith. If enough people tell you its true, you'll believe it, even if you never see any evidence of it firsthand(and, sometimes, even if you instead see evidence to the contrary).
I believe that such qualities have an impact on the game, but a minimal one. Jason Giambi, or Alex Rodriguez, or Gary Sheffield, or whoever...you can't convince me that they would perform much differently if Derek Jeter was a jerk instead of a super nice guy, or if he was ugly instead of handsome, or if he was quiet and reserved instead of outgoing and charming. They're professionals. They're paid millions of dollars to perform tasks that they are astonishingly skilled at, and have practiced and perfected through years and years of repetition. Any significant effect Jeter has on them comes through his own skills, not leadership.
Many of the great teams in history had rosters filled with boisterous, ego-centric, assholes who despised one another and were anything but leaders. The '86 Mets are a recent, notorious example.
Now, if you want to have the "team leader" award, the MVL, that's fine. To be a player means you field and/or hit, though, and, logically, intangibles don't do much there.
Quote: Joe Mama said: The offensive and defensive categories, to me, mean just as much as the intangibles you mentioned. Which is why I'd say that Ortiz deserved the MVP last year - A-Rod wasn't even the most valuable player on his TEAM, how was he the most valuable player in the LEAGUE?
If you think Jeter was more valuable than A-Rod last year, then you must think the intangibles mean a lot more than offensive and defensive categories, because A-Rod was superior to Jeter in virtually every stastical category last year. Better batting average, more doubles, homers, walks, RBI, runs, steals, a higher on base percentage, slugging percentage, vastly superior EqA, VORP, win shares...he even hit better with runners in scoring position, or in "close and late" situations, which is supposed to be Jeter's bread and butter.
Basically, to say that Jeter had the better year is to say stats mean next to nothing.
