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Well, as I already said, Marion was a very good(and very underrated player) before Nash arrived. Marion's 2005 season was nearly identical to his performance in '03 and '01, so it was hardly a sudden, miraculous transformation.

I've never said that Nash doesn't help Marion. Nash is a great player, a great point guard, and yes, he absolutely makes his team better. That being said, I think it's a reciprocal relationship. Marion helps Nash, too.




a bad year? yet nash helped fuel exactly the game style nellie utilized. run n gun, lots of shots, lots of passes, and in the process, turnovers happen. agreed marion helps nash, but to conclude marion is going to do as well without him is also possible. he might go to a team of lesser quality, like joe johnson and put up bigger number, but then do what? like joe johnson, he will not make the other players around him better. nash does. that is not a stat, but is undeniable.


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However, Nash's first couple of seasons in Dallas were pretty terrible. Then, in '01, when Dirk came into his own, suddenly Nash was playing well again. So, really, who was helping whom?

Also, Joe Johnson had his best season as a pro last year as an Atlanta Hawk, and Quentin Richardson was better as an L.A Clipper than as a Phoenix Sun.



yes, but before dirk, who were the mavs? a point gaurd alone is nothing. best in the league or not.look at a.i. or kidd. or any other point. you can make the best passes all day long, but if you pass to a butter hands with 2 left feet what good does it do? as far as joe johnson, i addressed him. better stats, but what has he done for the hawks? he hasn't made them as a whole better, really, or his teammates. just padded his career stats and wallet. and q rich, you say he was better knwon as a clip, i say q rich was a clip? exactly, a pretty good player on a horrible team isn't impressive.


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Dirk may prefer to play defense on the perimeter, but that doesn't mean he's bad on defense. He's a much better defender than Nash, and really doesn't get the credit he should. Often times, when a player is labeled as "soft" early in their career, it's very difficult for them to shake that label. Dirk averages virtually the same number of steals per game as Nash, while blocking a good number of shots. Nash has been much worse than the league average defensive rating pretty much every year he's been in the league. I love the guy, but he's just bad on defense.



dirk was labeled soft because he is soft. you don't see dirk banging it in the middle because he stays out there, he prefers out there, and when gaurding men in the middle he would rather not be there and it shows. you compare him and the no defence dirk, to the run n gun suns. dallas without nash tried it, and the suns were better at it. the suns were less on the make the stop, as they were beating them back up the floor. and were better at it. being weak on d, and using it to try and make some positive out of it.



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Well, Drew Gooden and Zydrunas Ilgauskas are pretty underrated players, but wouldn't the fact that LeBron doesn't have a terrific supporting cast, yet still wins, help his cause?



it does, hence him being one of the finalists. and drew and z. ilgauskas are underrated, but easily marion calibre, switch either with marion and it's marion is underrated and ilgauskas is awesome, all the sudden. why? nash. makes them better.


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Joe Johnson, as I mentioned, had a career year this year as an Atlanta Hawk.
Carlos Boozer has faced injury problems his years in Utah, but was on pace to have his best season this year.
Kenyon Martin was an underachiever in New Jersey, and is an underachiever in Denver(who bumped heads with George Karl one too many times).




johnson, again i addressed this, he is good, but he doesn't make his team better. boozer has not done anything in utah, hurt, maybe, but not hurt it means nothing. he is still just another good player as opposed to hearing his name on espn every night. no jason kidd to up his game, give him the dish, and the open looks. he has to earn every bit of it as opposed to have a pg to give him great looks. k-mart was just a flop in denver.




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I think you missed the point. It's not his turnover average, it's his turnover rate. His handling the ball leads to a smaller percentage of turnovers than Nash.



no, i perhaps wasn't clear enough. what does marion do with the ball. he looks to score. nash passes. now you can turn the ball over why attempting a shot, but opposed to being the ball handler. you cannot compare a ball handler, a pg, to a forward. so he turns it over less, sure his ratio is lower, but then how many passes per turnover. how many shots. if he touches 10 times, passes 3, turns over one, he has a low ratio. nash passes more, turns over more. his job is to try and thread the needle with those passes to open players. it happens. alot.


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I never said Nash was easily replacable. However, Nash being more unique doesn't mean he's better. There actually is a difference between similarity and replacability.



nash is unique. and better. better because while being an excellent player he makes others around him better. like johnson, or many other players, pippen included. good, but not one to improve his teammates. take nash out, and the suns are still good, playoff team. but contender, no. not without parker, kidd, or another excellent handler to replace him.

i do think he gets alot of credit due to being underrated for so long. i also think he is meeting the hype with playing well. marion has been shown his weaknesses by playing true defensive teams, like the spurs has a good defender, but, not much more than that. he won't shut people down, and in fact will be shut down. nash on the other hand will still get his points, and his assists, and yes, his turnovers.

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As I already said, biggest surprise doesn't mean best, or most valuable. Nash shoudln't have been the MVP last year, so the fact that he had a better year this year doesn't mean a whole lot to me.

If there was just a small difference statistically between Nash and the top-tier players, I probably would have given him the benefit of the doubt, since he didn't have his best player on the court with him. Unfortunately, the gap is pretty significant. Almost massive, actually. He simply was not in the class of LeBron, Kobe, Dirk or Wade this year.



but again mvp. no amare, or johnson. and he still pulled his team to the 2 seed. (3rd best record in west) he was the most valueable on his team, and most valueable in the league for brining a team with the most going against them and still acheiving a great record.


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But Billups doesn't have any player as good as Marion. Infact, the difference between Marion and Detroit's second best player is pretty close to the difference between Nash and the best players in the league.



i think there are quite a few that would happily disagree with you on that. hamilton not as good as marion. sheed. ben. not as good as marion? that is your opinion, and your entitled to it, but it is not a common one.



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Of Cleveland, LA, Detroit, Phoenix and Dallas, Kobe has easily the worst supporting cast. He also has the worst record, so...yeah.



yes he does. dallas actually is slowly getting a pretty good supporting cast. detroit, has an excellent starting five, but it drops sharply after that. phoenix on the other hand dropped in quality, but still remained in the same place.