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I hear alot of people claim to be agnostics and while they don;t necessarily share a single systematic philosophy they all seem to hold the general view that there "might" be a God, but that the evidence was insufficiant or to put it another way "the verdict was still out". Now why is it that in most cases the idea that there may be a God leads most to a sort of passive Athiesm an attitude like "There might be a God, but I could really care less" and a life that reflects an indifference towards God as though His existence were inconcequential. It seems that the responce that there could be a supreme being and ruler of the universe who may or may not require something of humanity would lead the true agnostic to a life altering persuit of a difinitive answer. I would expect to see the agnostic in Church every Sunday, Synigogue every Saturday and spend thier free time reading every volume on the subject, memorising the scriptures and more. But it seems that agnosisim seems to cultivate laziness rather than dilligence as far as rligion and persuit of the nature of God.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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That's your opinion.
Rather than ask what makes agnostic ticks, WBAM, you've put forth what you think we should be doing and that we should basically be enslaved to answering the Is There A God question. Why don't you just title the thread "What I Think Makes Agnostics Tick"?
Last edited by Jim Jackson; 2006-06-20 7:13 PM.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I hear alot of people claim to be agnostics and while they don;t necessarily share a single systematic philosophy they all seem to hold the general view that there "might" be a God, but that the evidence was insufficiant or to put it another way "the verdict was still out".
No, not exactly.
Agnostics(like me) believe that there is no way to prove whether or not God exists. It's just not possible. We believe it's something beyond human comprehension, and therefor, not worth wasting your life trying to figure out. You may as well call mathematicians who don't try to calculate Pi lazy, too.
It has nothing to do with "the verdict was still out". In my experience, that's really just been something certain overzealous religious people have attributed to agnosticism in an attempt to discredit it as a philosophy. Sort of like the way Ann Coulter likes to describe swing voters: people who are too stupid(or too cowardly) to make up their mind. I don't know if it comes from a profound misunderstanding of what agnostics actually believe, or simply an unwillingness to accept that they believe what they do. Either way, it's not right.
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Now why is it that in most cases the idea that there may be a God leads most to a sort of passive Athiesm an attitude like "There might be a God, but I could really care less" and a life that reflects an indifference towards God as though His existence were inconcequential.
Well, firstly, let's clarify:
When you say "God", you mean the Judeo-Christian concept of God.
Now, I don't claim to be the norm on this particular belief, but my views on why it is inconsequential have been expressed. Real or not real, God wouldn't affect the way I live my life, because there is no way I would accept the authority of a being that would allow what happens in this world on a daily basis to occur. If that is what "true" morality is, I would rather be immoral.
That's not to say that religion is entirely bad. There are certainly tenets of Catholicism, Judaism, even Islam that I think are fine. Jesus was an out of the box thinker with some wonderful ideas about the way people should treat each other. Still, I don't think a person should believe in doing good deeds because it's written in a 2,000 year old book supposedly dictated by God, or because they might be rewarded in the afterlife. I think people should believe in doing good deeds because it's right.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
That's your opinion.
Rather than ask what makes agnostic ticks, WBAM, you've put forth what you think we should be doing and that we should basically be enslaved to answering the Is There A God question. Why don't you just title the thread "What I Think Makes Agnostics Tick"?
A snippy response from JJ? I'm shocked. Yes of course the post above is my opinion, I'm the guy who posted it. If you want your opinion expressed then you post your opinion in your own post rather than wasting your post to complain that your opinion was absent from my post.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
Agnostics(like me) believe that there is no way to prove whether or not God exists. It's just not possible. We believe it's something beyond human comprehension, and therefor, not worth wasting your life trying to figure out. You may as well call mathematicians who don't try to calculate Pi lazy, too.
What I hear you describing is essentially a form of Athiesm. While not saying there is absolute proof that there is no God, you are saying there is no evidence that a god exists. That's a respectable position, but not really the position I've experienced wth people I've spoken to.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
That's your opinion.
Rather than ask what makes agnostic ticks, WBAM, you've put forth what you think we should be doing and that we should basically be enslaved to answering the Is There A God question. Why don't you just title the thread "What I Think Makes Agnostics Tick"?
A snippy response from JJ? I'm shocked. Yes of course the post above is my opinion, I'm the guy who posted it. If you want your opinion expressed then you post your opinion in your own post rather than wasting your post to complain that your opinion was absent from my post.
You're lucky I responded at all.
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I second Animalmans post!
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i dont believe their are truly any atheists, i believe there are people trying to convince theirselves that there is no god, but they really do believe there is.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
That's your opinion.
Rather than ask what makes agnostic ticks, WBAM, you've put forth what you think we should be doing and that we should basically be enslaved to answering the Is There A God question. Why don't you just title the thread "What I Think Makes Agnostics Tick"?
A snippy response from JJ? I'm shocked. Yes of course the post above is my opinion, I'm the guy who posted it. If you want your opinion expressed then you post your opinion in your own post rather than wasting your post to complain that your opinion was absent from my post.
You're lucky I responded at all.
Am I?
Seriously as self important as that statement is, my point for creating this thread was to hear what agnostics believe thier obligations to the persuit of knoledge is or is not. All you've done is complain about the title. I really don;t feel all that lucky, I wish you'd participate in the diologue.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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I've gone to churches, I've talked to people of all different kinds of religions, I've taken courses on religion in college and I've independantly read into different religions.
It is my conclusion that people use religious beliefs to find fulfillment and order in their world. I have fufillment and order and do not desire a god. God will do what god will do regardless of my beliefs or else he isn't god so why should I bother my little head about it? I did my research, found the results inconclusive, and decided it was a waste of a lifetime for me to dedicate any further effort into the persuit. I spend my "spiritual" time and energies trying to be a better person just because. Not so I go to heaven, not so I don't go to hell, not so I'm not a worm in the next life, not so I get countless virgins to fuck in the hearafter, not so I reach Nirvana, and not for good luck/karma/positive spells/whatever else you might interject. If the world can be anything REGARDLESS of god, why not make it as best as it can be?
Furthermore, if there IS a god there is NO WAY humans could actually fully understand. Taking this a step further, all religions are based on human interpretations of dieties. Why would I confine myself to some other long-dead person's understanding of The Ultimate Being?
There's a neat song by Bad Religion. Basically, people find The Answer all the time. If it works for you then AWESOME! It doesn't work for everyone and "another [answer] will come along soon."
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
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"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
What I hear you describing is essentially a form of Athiesm.
Atheism and agnosticism are similar, with slight variance, so that's not surprising. They're like cousins; not direct siblings, but related.
Quote:
While not saying there is absolute proof that there is no God, you are saying there is no evidence that a god exists. That's a respectable position, but not really the position I've experienced wth people I've spoken to.
Well, that's the definition of the phrase(in dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc). It's derived from the Greek word agnosis, or "without knowledge". I'm not going to tell other people what they really believe(I'll leave that to Pariah), but it doesn't sound like your experience has been with traditional agnostics.
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A lot of people like to have a foot in the door, just in case. Also there is some social stigma to declaring you do not believe in God, at least in some circles - you are a "godless heathen".
Deathbed conversions to Christianity were very common in the 19th century - Sir Richard Francis Burton, I think even Goerge Bernard Shaw (but I may be wrong) in the 20th century, and others.
As an atheist I understand where agnostics are coming from, but I agree with wbam in his premise that its kind of like saying you're only a little bit pregnant. Either you believe, or you don't. If you don't know, then you don't believe. Religion is all about faith, and if you lack faith then you're not on the team.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
That's your opinion.
Rather than ask what makes agnostic ticks, WBAM, you've put forth what you think we should be doing and that we should basically be enslaved to answering the Is There A God question. Why don't you just title the thread "What I Think Makes Agnostics Tick"?
A snippy response from JJ? I'm shocked. Yes of course the post above is my opinion, I'm the guy who posted it. If you want your opinion expressed then you post your opinion in your own post rather than wasting your post to complain that your opinion was absent from my post.
You're lucky I responded at all.
Am I?
Seriously as self important as that statement is, my point for creating this thread was to hear what agnostics believe thier obligations to the persuit of knoledge is or is not. All you've done is complain about the title. I really don;t feel all that lucky, I wish you'd participate in the diologue.
I've argued religion and sexuality on the RKMBs for over 3 years now. I'm tired of it. I have better things to do than to try to convince you, uselessly, what makes an agnostic tick. You stated your premise, your opinion in your opening paragraph and I have no reason to feel you'll deviate from it, so why should I bother trying to get you to?
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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
A lot of people like to have a foot in the door, just in case. Also there is some social stigma to declaring you do not believe in God, at least in some circles - you are a "godless heathen".
To me, and those that fall into the category of a traditional agnostic, it's not about "having a foot in the door", because the door doesn't matter. The debate on God is a non-issue, and arriving at any real conclusion would be pretentious, anyway.
Quote:
As an atheist I understand where agnostics are coming from, but I agree with wbam in his premise that its kind of like saying you're only a little bit pregnant. Either you believe, or you don't. If you don't know, then you don't believe. Religion is all about faith, and if you lack faith then you're not on the team.
Most agnostics do not believe, to the extent that they do not acknowledge Him. They are faithless("apistos"), like atheists. That's why I said atheism and agnosticism are related. The difference is, agnostics believe that it is impossible to know definitively, or prove such a conclusion.
Also, I find your analogy to be somewhat specious. Pregnancy is perceptible and evident. God is not. You can't compare something as concrete as that to something as broad and abstract as God.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
A lot of people like to have a foot in the door, just in case. Also there is some social stigma to declaring you do not believe in God, at least in some circles - you are a "godless heathen".
To me, and those that fall into the category of a traditional agnostic, it's not about "having a foot in the door", because the door doesn't matter. The debate on God is a non-issue, and arriving at any real conclusion would be pretentious, anyway.
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I don't believe there is a god.
But I can't prove there isn't.
So I guess I'm agnostic.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Also, I find your analogy to be somewhat specious. Pregnancy is perceptible and evident. God is not. You can't compare something as concrete as that to something as broad and abstract as God.
I'm gonna have to go with the facist here and say his analogy was fine. He wasn't comparing the existence of God to your pregnancy. He was comparing the existence of God to the logic of your opinion on said God.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
That's your opinion.
Rather than ask what makes agnostic ticks, WBAM, you've put forth what you think we should be doing and that we should basically be enslaved to answering the Is There A God question. Why don't you just title the thread "What I Think Makes Agnostics Tick"?
A snippy response from JJ? I'm shocked. Yes of course the post above is my opinion, I'm the guy who posted it. If you want your opinion expressed then you post your opinion in your own post rather than wasting your post to complain that your opinion was absent from my post.
You're lucky I responded at all.
Am I?
Seriously as self important as that statement is, my point for creating this thread was to hear what agnostics believe thier obligations to the persuit of knoledge is or is not. All you've done is complain about the title. I really don;t feel all that lucky, I wish you'd participate in the diologue.
I've argued religion and sexuality on the RKMBs for over 3 years now. I'm tired of it. I have better things to do than to try to convince you, uselessly, what makes an agnostic tick. You stated your premise, your opinion in your opening paragraph and I have no reason to feel you'll deviate from it, so why should I bother trying to get you to?
And yet you keep posting? Didn't they teach you in phych school to get over yourself? I think you stated your problem quite obviously, wich is you expect to convert people on a message board and your failure to do so has left you dissolusioned with the online debateling experience. Of course I don;t intend to deviate from my position, but that doesn;t mean I'm not genuinely interested in hearing the positions of others. Wheni debate you, Dave, Ray Adler or others on teh merits of religion I have never once expected to recieve a PM asking when and where could they get baptised, it's an exchange of information, nothing more nothing less. If you don't want to engage, fine, but it seems silly to engage simply to complian that the subject is being discussed and then claim that we're somehow lucky to have experienced your input. Engage or don;t, but please don;t whine. It's unbecoming.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Animalman said:
Also, I find your analogy to be somewhat specious. Pregnancy is perceptible and evident. God is not. You can't compare something as concrete as that to something as broad and abstract as God.
I'm gonna have to go with the facist here and say his analogy was fine. He wasn't comparing the existence of God to your pregnancy. He was comparing the existence of God to the logic of your opinion on said God.
Religion is powered by faith, and logic does not (when you get right down to it) get involved. There are only two alternatives: agnostics like the idea of there being three, but the third one is a false premise:
1. If you believe, you are a believer.
2. If you do not believe, then you are not a believer.
3. If you don't know whether or not to believe, then you are not a believer.
Animalman is coming at it from the other direction. He says:
1. Some people don't believe
2. Some people aren't sure whether to believe (for whatever reason)
3. The balance of people believe.
But the people in category 1 and 2 should be lump together because faith is dependent upon an absence of logic. You may not be able to prove God, as a believer, but it doesn't matter to you because of faith. Proof does not matter.
For the agnostic, faith is not proof - they can't prove existence or non-existence. Proof, not faith, governs their leaning. The agnostic isn't sure and isn't a believer because he says no one can prove it.
Ergo, they have no faith because they say the question relies on a proof no one can provide. And you must have faith to believe.
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What are you talking about? All I said was that the reasoning behind the anology was fine. I wasn't talking about God and whether or not He exists.
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Shut up and agree with me or I'll ban you.
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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
Shut up and agree with me or I'll ban you.
I second the motion.
All in favor?
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
That's your opinion.
Rather than ask what makes agnostic ticks, WBAM, you've put forth what you think we should be doing and that we should basically be enslaved to answering the Is There A God question. Why don't you just title the thread "What I Think Makes Agnostics Tick"?
A snippy response from JJ? I'm shocked. Yes of course the post above is my opinion, I'm the guy who posted it. If you want your opinion expressed then you post your opinion in your own post rather than wasting your post to complain that your opinion was absent from my post.
You're lucky I responded at all.
Am I?
Seriously as self important as that statement is, my point for creating this thread was to hear what agnostics believe thier obligations to the persuit of knoledge is or is not. All you've done is complain about the title. I really don;t feel all that lucky, I wish you'd participate in the diologue.
I've argued religion and sexuality on the RKMBs for over 3 years now. I'm tired of it. I have better things to do than to try to convince you, uselessly, what makes an agnostic tick. You stated your premise, your opinion in your opening paragraph and I have no reason to feel you'll deviate from it, so why should I bother trying to get you to?
And yet you keep posting? Didn't they teach you in phych school to get over yourself? I think you stated your problem quite obviously, wich is you expect to convert people on a message board and your failure to do so has left you dissolusioned with the online debateling experience. Of course I don;t intend to deviate from my position, but that doesn;t mean I'm not genuinely interested in hearing the positions of others. Wheni debate you, Dave, Ray Adler or others on teh merits of religion I have never once expected to recieve a PM asking when and where could they get baptised, it's an exchange of information, nothing more nothing less. If you don't want to engage, fine, but it seems silly to engage simply to complian that the subject is being discussed and then claim that we're somehow lucky to have experienced your input. Engage or don;t, but please don;t whine. It's unbecoming.
So's your shitty spelling and yet you keep doing it.
If you don't even leave yourself open to the possibility of revising your opinions, there's no point. I told you a long time ago on these boards that I've given up on you. You're a lost cause.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
If you don't even leave yourself open to the possibility of revising your opinions, there's no point.
Just a quick question, Jim....Do you?
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Wow, Jim a personal attack on my spelling and then a lashing out about how you're giving up on me because I'm a lost cause, did they teach you all those techinques in psych school?
Seriously you're being such a hypocrit that it's no longer funny (ok, when you throw in the pompouse "I have a phych degree" it's still a little funny). You explain that you've given up on me as a lost cause because I'm not "open" to changing my opinion. I've changed my opinion on alot in the past year, but again why do you expect to convert people through a message board? Also tell me where you've changed your position has changed. Infact tell me where you're open to change your position. Are you willing to consider the valididty of Christianity as teh one true faith? If not should I cease discussions whith you about it? Perhaps it's time you take a turn on the couch and try growing up and acting like an adult. Adults can engage in interactions without the expectation of "getting thier way". Noone here but you expects to convert the other side to them by means of a message board so stop throwing a hissy because I'm not willing to embrace your position despite a single cojent argument coming from you. If you can;t get over yourself and truly despise my refusal to change my belief system based on some post you deemed magnificent, then don't post just to bemoan the fact that I dissagree with you. It makes you seem like a child. PS spellcheck is cheaper than psychotherapy.
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Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
If you don't even leave yourself open to the possibility of revising your opinions, there's no point.
Just a quick question, Jim....Do you?
Of course he does, he's better than the rest of us.
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Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
If you don't even leave yourself open to the possibility of revising your opinions, there's no point.
Just a quick question, Jim....Do you?
Absolutely.
I used to be decidedly pro-choice.
Now decidedly not.
But my opinion on that didn't change based on anything I read on the RKMBs. Sorry.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
then don't post just to bemoan the fact that I dissagree with you. It makes you seem like a child.
I fit right in here, then.
Quote:
PS spellcheck is cheaper than psychotherapy.
You suggesting you need both? We all know you need the former.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
Wow, Jim a personal attack on my spelling and then a lashing out about how you're giving up on me because I'm a lost cause, did they teach you all those techinques in psych school?
Seriously you're being such a hypocrit that it's no longer funny (ok, when you throw in the pompouse "I have a phych degree" it's still a little funny). You explain that you've given up on me as a lost cause because I'm not "open" to changing my opinion. I've changed my opinion on alot in the past year, but again why do you expect to convert people through a message board? Also tell me where you've changed your position has changed. Infact tell me where you're open to change your position. Are you willing to consider the valididty of Christianity as teh one true faith? If not should I cease discussions whith you about it? Perhaps it's time you take a turn on the couch and try growing up and acting like an adult. Adults can engage in interactions without the expectation of "getting thier way". Noone here but you expects to convert the other side to them by means of a message board so stop throwing a hissy because I'm not willing to embrace your position despite a single cojent argument coming from you. If you can;t get over yourself and truly despise my refusal to change my belief system based on some post you deemed magnificent, then don't post just to bemoan the fact that I dissagree with you. It makes you seem like a child. PS spellcheck is cheaper than psychotherapy.
You're always welcome to ignore me, WBAM. 
We all wear a green carnation.
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10000+ posts
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First Amongst Daves said:
Religion is powered by faith, and logic does not (when you get right down to it) get involved. There are only two alternatives: agnostics like the idea of there being three, but the third one is a false premise:
1. If you believe, you are a believer.
2. If you do not believe, then you are not a believer.
3. If you don't know whether or not to believe, then you are not a believer.
Animalman is coming at it from the other direction. He says:
1. Some people don't believe
2. Some people aren't sure whether to believe (for whatever reason)
3. The balance of people believe.
But the people in category 1 and 2 should be lump together because faith is dependent upon an absence of logic. You may not be able to prove God, as a believer, but it doesn't matter to you because of faith. Proof does not matter.
For the agnostic, faith is not proof - they can't prove existence or non-existence. Proof, not faith, governs their leaning. The agnostic isn't sure and isn't a believer because he says no one can prove it.
Ergo, they have no faith because they say the question relies on a proof no one can provide. And you must have faith to believe.
I have no problem with being lumped in with nonbelievers. Although my lack of belief and faith is founded through different criterion, I don't deny that I do not have faith, and I do not believe(and I think the same is true of most agnostics), so, atheists and I are intrinsically bonded philosophically.
Now, If someone's definition of an atheist is as simplistic as what I described, then I suppose, by their standards, I am an atheist. I just don't see it as being that clear-cut.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Jim Jackson said:
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klinton said:
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Jim Jackson said:
If you don't even leave yourself open to the possibility of revising your opinions, there's no point.
Just a quick question, Jim....Do you?
Absolutely.
I used to be decidedly pro-choice.
Now decidedly not.
But my opinion on that didn't change based on anything I read on the RKMBs. Sorry.
I used to be decidedly pro-choice as well, I also used to be agnostic as well as a commited leftie, but like you my positions weren't changed on a message board, so what's your beef? Your problem isn;t that I'm unwilling to change my opinion, but that I'm unwilling to change them based on your magnificant posts.
Noone on the message boards is really that open to change based on someone elses posts, so I wonder why you single me out so? Perhaps I remind you of your father.....but I don't know, I'm not the one with the psych degree.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Can you two take your history somewhere else?
You're both got meaningful things to say but I'd prefer to read it without the static.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Noone on the message boards is really that open to change based on someone elses posts, so I wonder why you single me out so? Perhaps I remind you of your father.....but I don't know, I'm not the one with the psych degree.
My dad's dead. I think I've mentioned that a time or two here, so it's kind of a hot button issue with me and frankly, I see you remark as rather out of bounds.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I'm not the one with the psych degree.
Actually, I have two psych degrees.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Noone on the message boards is really that open to change based on someone elses posts, so I wonder why you single me out so? Perhaps I remind you of your father.....but I don't know, I'm not the one with the psych degree.
My dad's dead. I think I've mentioned that a time or two here, so it's kind of a hot button issue with me and frankly, I see you remark as rather out of bounds.
Out of bounds? perhaps if I had known (assuming it was premature), but since it wasn't my intention to capitalise on a personal tradgedy, I hope you'll accept my appology. I was playing off the phych angle and th cliche in phychotherapy to link everything to ones parrents.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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First Amongst Daves said:
Can you two take your history somewhere else?
Frankly I didn;t know JJ and i had "history" untill he came in this thread complaining that I have an opinion.
Quote:
You're both got meaningful things to say but I'd prefer to read it without the static.
Wich is why I would like JJ to engage in teh topic at hand instead of coming here to express his grief w/ me.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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Joined: Oct 2003
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I'm not the one with the psych degree.
Actually, I have two psych degrees.
Then make sure you hire someone w/ 3.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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I'm bored with this. All who think I should bump this thread to Offtopics say "aye".
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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In which case you would further prove your facism by showing that you'll get rid of any thread that "bores" you.
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I'd just de-sticky it and let it fall down the pagelist.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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