Originally Posted By: Matter-eater Man

Aside from the Durbin quote which he apolgized for, your quotes from the Dem leaders are aimed at a President who deserves them. They support the troops but not failed leadership.

At this point in time it's not I who needs to convince you. You have till '08. Maybe even less since it appears the GOP is getting twitchy since the last election.

 Originally Posted By: Wonder Boy


  • Richard Gephardt: "Miserable failure..."
    I don't see Bush specified in that recurrent phrase he used for months.

    Howard Dean: "There's no way we can win in Iraq..."
    Again, I don't see Bush specified in those remarks. As I pointed out previously, Dean is saying there's no way we can win, no matter who's doing the fighting, no matter who's in command.

    Richard Durbin: "...comparable to Nazi storm troopers, Soviet Gulags and the Pol Pot regime..."
    Again, no mention of Bush, clearly he's talking about troops on the ground, not leadership in Washington.

    Harry Reid: "We've lost the war...
    Again, way beyond criticism of Bush, there's no suggestion that alternative leadership could win the war in any circumstance, again undermining not just Bush, but clearly undermining the efforts of our soldiers on the ground, no matter who is in command.

    from the PBS news report I posted above, a liberal anti-war protestor: "We want our troops home now, General Petraeus is betraying us..."
    Clearly attacking our military in Iraq, not just President Bush.



I see a lot of evasive rationalization in your argument, M E M, attempting to circumnavigate what has clearly been said, not just about Bush, but undermining fighting the war in any circumstance, regardless of Bush.


 Originally Posted By: Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man
Your point is, quite frankly, unamerican.
We have the right to criticize our leaders and their policies. Soldiers are really just tools in war, they don't make choices on policy or strategy. So to insult the war or the failures is to insult the people making those choices. The only way they'd be insulting the troops is if they insulted them personally (eg. "fuck the troops, who cares how many have to die.").
In fact to mismanage a war where soldiers' lives are on the line is literally not "supporting" the troops.


I'll grant that Bush and Rumsfeld have badly mismanaged the war. And further, that up through Dec 2006, I resisted possible impeachment of Bush by a Democrat-led Congress and Senate. I now think his derilection of duty has been so severe (in both the Iraq war, and on enforcement of immigration law and protecting our borders from massive invasion) that I would now support impeachment of Bush.
Bush's derilection has been that bad.

However, I disagree that my point is "un-American". You seem oblivious to the point that Democrats and Republicans should be held to the same level of scrutiny. And that's what my comments have done: revealed the self-destructive and defeatist ideology of Democrat leadership from the very top.

Bush has been negligent, yes.

But so have the Democrats.

We need public criticism that will truly champion the best interests of the nation and its people. Not give partisan smear, favoring one corrupt side or the other.