Do you have any idea what that post looks like to a sane person?
I don't know about a sane person, but a person who knows what they are talking about will agree with me.
Me owning JoeMama
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Zero to the former and maybe once on the latter. In this thread, as you say. Moving on...
Originally Posted By: Halo
That seems very attenuated to me.
But just for the record, I'm just talking here. Not trying to convince anybody of anything.
http://www.rkmbs.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/911667/fpart/6 Originally Posted By: I also said which according to Joe I didn't say
I understand that, everyone keeps saying that but it's irrelevant considering how far Hal took it. If Hal snapped and told the Guardians to shove it or blew up their HQ that would be one thing but he wanted to reset the universe to his standards which, yeah, is insane/evil.
http://www.rkmbs.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/911667/fpart/11 Originally Posted By: another attempt to defuse the topic
I've read it, and everything you guys have said essentially comes down to what I just said.
Maybe I am being stubborn but I think you all are just rationalizing.
Whatever it is though let's not turn serious about it.
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Wrong again. I can handle disagreement in any discussion/debate
Obviously not. Here's some "hard evidence"
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This reads like the posting of one who overindulges in bad sci-fi and a childlike worldview. If one looks at Hal as a victim of great loss, intense grief, and maybe even a touch of post-traumatic stress disorder, his rebellion against the Guardians make perfect sense. His turn to villainy and the death of so many in his wake is still horrible, but there's logic to the story. Follow it up with his fall into pure villainy (the best villains are the ones who are convinced that they're right), and his sacrifice during Final Night, and you get a great tale of downfall and redemption.
You admire the hero, upon his return, as he attempts to atone for his past sins and work for the greater good. The "bug up his arse" excuse is a lame way to explain away his acts of evil. It takes away the character's responsibility and need for atonement, and insults the reader's intelligence. It reeks of the hackneyed "he wuz under mind control" cliche. And, frankly, it's just bad writing.
The events that led up to Hal's downfall can hardly be called a "bad day..."
You came into this conversation swinging.
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Originally Posted By: Halo82
If minute/trivial hero stuff like making mistakes and being a man whore back up Hal "snapping" then Peter is justified in doing whatever it takes to save Aunt May. May and Uncle Ben were Peter's one saving grace. If not for them his life would have been complete shit before he got his Spider powers therefore is dedication (almost pathological dedication) makes sense...from this perspective. But, if you look at it from the perspective of Hal and Peter being smart, brave, and experienced heroes then neither story makes sense without some outside force acting upon them. IMO.
The first sentence of your post is pure stupidity and proof that you haven't read a fucking word I've posted. Hal has the weight of an entire space sector on his shoulders. He has repeatedly butted heads with his "superiors" (superior officers and the Guardians). He has repeatedly been put, and put himself, into situations that would try anyone's ability to cope. The straws that breaks the camel's back (so to speak) is the destruction of the city he loves, the death of a large percentage of the people he loves, his guilt at not being able to prevent all that death, his anger and bitterness that (once again, in his mind) the Guardians' reaction is "oh well, suck it up and get back to work." I would say that Hal's reaction and change in POV, while extreme, follows a logical progression that goes back decades.
There is no precedent for Peter's actions. He has refused to succumb to that kind of temptation. Aunt May has been sick and dying and dead before. He hasn't made a selfish deal for personal gain as a result. Various people have attempted to buy him off. With the exception of his actions befor Uncle Ben's death, Peter hasn't been for sale. All of a sudden, Mephisto comes around and Peter makes the deal. Bullshit. I'll go one step further - if you look at the characters involved and ask "What would May say?", the answer you get (if you're honest with yourself) kills the deal before it's even offered. It's a bullshit "plot twist" that makes no sense for the character the same way that "space bugs" is a bullshit plot twist.
You continue to look at these characters as infallible because they're heroes (one can't be a hero with being infallible). I look at them as heroes precisely BECAUSE they're fallible and constantly try to rise above their failures and poor decisions. These characters make mistakes and have failures that they regret and seek to atone for (the core of Spider-Man's existence and Hal's reason to be since his "rebirth" as the Spectre and his current rebirth as a mortal). But in the end here are my points:
1) Hal's action leading up to becoming Parallax make sense. You can like them or hate them, but they follow the character's evolution.
2) Peter's deal with Mephisto doesn't make sense to the character.
3) You and I will never agree on what makes a hero.
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Originally Posted By: Beardguy57
Originally Posted By: Halo82
Originally Posted By: Joe Mama
Originally Posted By: Beardguy57
Or that they did not have him go nuts in the first place...
That's what grief and loss, coupled with intense stress, can do to a person. I think it rings truest for the character than any other option. Certainly moreso than "I had a bug up my arse but I shit it out and feel MUCH better!"
But the title "hero" means Hal should be able to deal with this stuff better then any old person.
By you all's logic it's inevitable that every hero will go homicidal eventually and that just doesn't ring true for me.
This is my point exactly!
Heroes are supposed to deal with their shit better than the average person; The power ring found him and chose him, but now, that does not make sense because Hal really fucked up bigtime..the ring ought to have sensed the potential for that in him...
Hal didn't have to go nuts.. but he did, because they wrote him that way.
I wish I could live in your world, where one's heroes are infallible, god-like creatures who never do wrong. Or whose wrongs can be explained away be deus ex machinas and "space bugs." Creatures who are never responsible for their "failures" because they never fail. My heroes are all human - people who have flaws and who rise above them. People who have failures and atone for them.
My logic doesn't make it "inevitable that every hero will go homicidal eventually." My logic says that heroes, for all their greatness and such, are still human. The fact that a hero fails and still strives to do right and atone for ones sins make them the inspiration that they are. How do you, as a flawed person, connect with perfection?
So anybody who disagrees with you is in another world? Then after a conversation with G-man you start queefing at me for some reason with this shit-
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I notice my comment got conveniently ignored. I win.
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You have no comment? Or does any talk of Magneto block your ability to jam your fingers in your ears and repeat, "Not listening! Not listening!!!"
Then you completely misquoted me
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Originally Posted By: Halo82
Originally Posted By: Joe Mama
You have no comment? Or does any talk of Magneto block your ability to jam your fingers in your ears and repeat, "Not listening! Not listening!!!"
I've moved on from Magneto to Dr Doom.
Made that move sometime around when I defered to Doc's points about the diffrences between Magneto and Parallex.
Gotta pay attention when you want to be a smartass.
Can we not do this "you would agree with me if you were listening to me" shit? It's really dumb.
You used Doctor Doom in a comparison to Magneto. If you can't respond to my point, just say so
Instead of having the balls to admit you were wrong you respond-
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Originally Posted By: Halo82
I can't respond to your point.
Fixed your post for you.
The difference between Magneto and Hal/Parallax and Doctor Doom is that the former two, at some point, seek redemption and try to atone for past sins. Doctor Doom has never, to my memory, done that. Doctor Doom is evil based on pure hubris.
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You didn't irk me until I stated my opinion, argued points based on fact, and cited other work...only to have you deny their veracity and merit because you didn't agree.
No you haven't. It was all opinion basically saying Hal is uptight and the space bug was a copout.
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Originally Posted By: Grimm
or the story of Gilgamesh.
Hell, there isn't a single pantheon that ISN'T riddled with a heapin' helping of atrocity!
I don't understand why you need Hal to be "possessed" to maintain your view of him as a hero. Yes, he was the perfect li'l soldier before the destruction of Coast City. He was also boring as hell. By sending him through this story arc (from paragon to pariah to sacrifice to redemption), he actually comes out as a better hero - and without the "space bug," this involves taking responsibility for his actions and seeking atonement (which we all can relate to). The "space bug" diminishes this. It cheapens the arc.
Is this suppose to be fact? It's not. It's opinion.
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Maybe. But the former involves a classic hero's journey. The latter is just lazy, hack writing.
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Is that suppose to be fact?
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You accused me of overstating the very points of proof and effects on a person that you, in fact, were grossly understating (a point that others disputed with you, though I'm sure you ignored them as well).
I've ignored nothing. Many times I skip shit that's a matter of opinion. But please, point what i've ignored. I doubt you will cause ultimately you're nothing but a bunch of talk.
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And, by the way, I never referred to you as a pussy or butt hurt, as you have to me. I attacked your views and statements.
I only ever insulted you after that "sticking your fingers in your ears" nonsense. I don't remember calling you a pussy though.
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And no one's going to, as you say, "be objective" and agree with you because they either don't agree with you or don't care enough to get involved, or they think watching us rip you and your goofy posts/threads to shreds. As one of the the nonsensically senior people here, let me offer you this fact (which you will ignore) about these boards:
It's not about agreeing with me. It's about the fact that you and Grimm clearly got angry at me for not agreeing with you and now I've got people telling me to let it go? Especially after-
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No one was talking to you. Go back to getting schooled by Pariah in the Politics Forum.
Our conversation was dead and over before you started shit up again. I asked you what your problem was you ignored me, I even sent you a pm and you ignored it. There's no way anybodies gonna tell me to let this go when you and Grimm are clearly irrationally pissed off at me. Anybody who denies that is flat our wrong.
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At any given time, Grimm and I (who have met and are friends in real life) could get into a rank fight and say some pretty brutal things. Harley and I have argued to the point where we had to hash things out via PM (PS: I deleted your PM to me, as I don't care about you enough to give you the same attention I'd giver her or Grimm or...you get the idea). I've feuded with multiple members of this board including quite a few people who, if I ever met them face-to-face, would have a pint bought for them by m'self. Pariah and I have briefly locked horns the way you two are now, though I don't think I took as bad of a whoopin' as you are (I may be wrong). At any given time any one of us can start goofing on the other in fun and maybe sometimes seriously. The difference is that most of us rarely have to start threads to whine about our mistreatment at the hands of others. By the way, this thread is either based on a lie (it's not a thread to discuss the irrational hatred of Parallax but to whine about me and Grimm) or it's another case of you ignoring everything I said in favor of rambling about...whatever it is you really want to ramble about - I never said I hate Parallax; I argued that the "space bug" aspect of him was poorly done, diminished what was a very good story arc for a character, and could've been handled far better. I've even argued that point with G-Man (though I'm sure you ignored this. In fact, I know you did.).
It's based on an exaggeration to piss you off as much as your misrepresentations and lies about me pissed me off.
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The fact is, you came here expecting everyone to play all nicey-nice with you and blindly accept everything you say because it's your opinion.
You have a real shitty definition of "fact". I don't expect anyone to agree with me. Ray, Snarf, Doc, Harley, Rob all disagree and you don't see me argueing with them.
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and to not let you get away with dismissing them because, again, it's your opinion so there.
You say this, but again I'm the ONLY one who's givin ground in this conversation
Originally Posted By: me talking to Grimm
Okay, you have a point about Sinestro but you haven't shown that Hal was erratic enough to go rogue either.
http://www.rkmbs.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/911667/fpart/17 Originally Posted By: me talking to Doc
That's a good point.
I still think that it's a copout to have him just simply go insane. I think he's stronger then that.
I think Hal is cool and Parallex is far more intresting then some generic madness that he caved into.
http://www.rkmbs.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/911667/fpart/10 Quote:
(as opposed to the H.E.A.T., which you whined you should invite to these boards)
This is great example of you being oversensitive and irrational. I was fucking joking. I figured the motie I threw in there would indicate that.
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Frankly, I'm not interested in debating anything with you, or generally talking to you,
I've heard that before.
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(I guess Grimm and I should've cited specific issues, in bibliographic form, to appease you)
"You're not one for hard evidence".
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So I'll let Pariah continue his work on you and you'll either toughen up or go away soon enough. It's all the same to me.
It's sad that you would hate me or think so low of me over a diffrence in comic books. Even if I am a stubborn bastard that hardly makes me so abhorent.
http://www.rkmbs.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/914390/fpart/4-all Joe could come up with is some emo response about "I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. You just ignore all my posts".
Which was comedic gold since he ignored everything I said.
Anyway, that was past, this is the now. This is the last time I'll referance that since Joe will undoubtedly give me plenty of ammo for the future.
