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Well, either Hillary or Obama needs superdelegates to win, and cannot reach the threshold just from the state primaries.
So either one has to win by a decision of the elites within the Democrat party (the superdelegates) and either arguably will not have won by the will of Democrat voters.
Hillary may have the ability (including the Florida and Michigan primary voters) to claim a majority of voters. But Obama supporters can say that it's only in that context, and that due to violation of DNC rules, those votes should be excluded from the total.
Like the 2000 election, there are all kinds of ways one can say their guy (or gal) is the true winner. (popular vote, electoral vote, included, excluded). But whether people like it or not, all that really matters is what the DNC says is the official result.
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What rule do you see her rewriting to win? I was referring to a perception that she was trying to rewrite the rules more than an actual attempt to 'cheat.' For example, one of the people screaming loudest for her to get the delegates from MI and FL (and for those numbers to count toward the 'popular vote' theory is her campaign advisor Harold Ickes. However, Ickes was one of the DNC members who originally voted to strip both Florida and Michigan of their convention delegates for staging their party primaries too early in the season—and against the rules of the DNC. Rules that Ickes had voted for in the first place. Also, while there is nothing to prevent superdelegates from taking her wins into consideration while making their decisions, there is clearly nothing requiring them to consider who "won" the popular vote, an argument that she seems to be making with increasing frequency. And, as noted above, even that argument requires a spinning of the vote totals that is at least as fuzzy, if not moreso, than the tally put forth by Obama.
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... And, as noted above, even that argument requires a spinning of the vote totals that is at least as fuzzy, if not moreso, than the tally put forth by Obama. I thought Hillary's count was based on the simplest basis. If you voted for her it counted as voting for her if there was a vote total from that state available. On the other hand Obama count has more fuzziness to it. For example, he has no problem scooping up almost half of Michigan's pledged delegates plus a couple of Hillary's, those numbers are good but the actual vote shouldn't count because he took his name off the ballot when it looked advantagous for his campaign? I think if he's taking the pledged delegates looted from Hillary & others than he really can't believably claim those votes don't count.
Fair play!
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What rule do you see her rewriting to win? I was referring to a perception that she was trying to rewrite the rules more than an actual attempt to 'cheat.' For example, one of the people screaming loudest for her to get the delegates from MI and FL (and for those numbers to count toward the 'popular vote' theory is her campaign advisor Harold Ickes. However, Ickes was one of the DNC members who originally voted to strip both Florida and Michigan of their convention delegates for staging their party primaries too early in the season—and against the rules of the DNC. Rules that Ickes had voted for in the first place. Also, while there is nothing to prevent superdelegates from taking her wins into consideration while making their decisions, there is clearly nothing requiring them to consider who "won" the popular vote, an argument that she seems to be making with increasing frequency. And, as noted above, even that argument requires a spinning of the vote totals that is at least as fuzzy, if not moreso, than the tally put forth by Obama. ... And, as noted above, even that argument requires a spinning of the vote totals that is at least as fuzzy, if not moreso, than the tally put forth by Obama. I thought Hillary's count was based on the simplest basis. If you voted for her it counted as voting for her if there was a vote total from that state available. On the other hand Obama count has more fuzziness to it. For example, he has no problem scooping up almost half of Michigan's pledged delegates plus a couple of Hillary's, those numbers are good but the actual vote shouldn't count because he took his name off the ballot when it looked advantagous for his campaign? I think if he's taking the pledged delegates looted from Hillary & others than he really can't believably claim those votes don't count. Two diametrically opposed, well-reasoned and equally valid perspectives. RKMB at its finest.
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 Wondy thinks he knows the meaning of well reasoned. Please bitch. You're an emotionally stunted pat buchanan loving bitch.
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Clinton to superdelegates: I will win
4 hours ago
SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AFP) — Hillary Clinton used the springboard of a hefty win in Sunday's Puerto Rico primary to demand that party elders crown her, and not Barack Obama, as the Democrats' best bet to seize back the White House.
However, Obama remained in sight of the Democratic presidential nomination after a fractious deal on Florida and Michigan struck at the weekend, ahead of Tuesday's climactic contests in Montana and South Dakota.
With 85 percent of the vote counted on the Caribbean US territory of Puerto Rico, Clinton was far ahead of her rival from Illinois with 68 percent to 32, according to US television networks.
In her victory speech, Clinton pivoted from thanking Puerto Ricans -- who are US citizens but lack a vote in November's election -- to addressing the single most important Democratic constituency left: "superdelegates."
"I will lead the popular vote. He (Obama) will maintain a lead in the delegate count," she said, anticipating Tuesday's finish to five months of coast-to-coast nominating battles.
"I ask you to consider these questions -- which candidate best represents the will of the people who voted in this historic primary? Which candidate is best able to lead to us victory in November?" she told superdelegates.
"And which candidate is best able to lead our nation as our president in the face of unprecedented challenges at home and abroad? I am in this race because I believe I am that candidate, and I will be that president."
CNN exit polls said that 72 percent of Clinton supporters in Puerto Rico would be unhappy with Obama as the Democratic nominee, reinforcing other polling evidence suggesting the party is at risk of fracture.
... Yet another lopsided win for Hillary. And depending on the voter turnout will cement her claim to the popular vote winner. It's too bad that it looks like the superdelegates seem settled into just giving Obama the nomination. I said it a little while back but maybe not getting the nomination this time will end up working better for her in the long run though. I still fail to see how winning in Puerto Rico means jack shit. They might as well be holding primaries in France for all the good the Puerto Rican votes do.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Yeah, it's difficult to see how she can claim that this counts for anything, let alone her claim to be winning the popular vote, when residents of Puerto Rico can't vote in the general presidential election.
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Yeah, it's difficult to see how she can claim that this counts for anything, let alone her claim to be winning the popular vote, when residents of Puerto Rico can't vote in the general presidential election. Many of the state's that pad Obama's pledged delegate count may count in the general but there is no realistic chance of him or any democrat winning those states. Do those wins count? Even though PR might not count in the general the democratic party does recognize it with 20 some pledged delegates for the nomination race. So those votes definitley count when asking who recieved the popular vote.
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But there's no way for her to say that it matters when it comes to the general, which is the point she's trying to make in her arguments for the nom. Puerto Rico is useless, and the only ones giving it any credence are the die hard Hillary supporters. Everyone else couldn't give a shit.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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The Politico- Members of Hillary Clinton's advance staff received calls and emails this evening from headquarters summoning them to New York City Tuesday night, and telling them their roles on the campaign are ending, two Clinton staffers tell my colleague Amie Parnes. The advance staffers — most of them now in Puerto Rico, South Dakota, and Montana — are being given the options of going to New York for a final day Tuesday, or going home, the aides said. The move is a sign that the campaign is beginning to shed — at least — some of its staff.
If she's laying off staff that's a pretty good indicator that she realizes the end is here.
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The NYT “I’ve been closing very strongly since Feb. 20,” she said, referring to the day after Mr. Obama won Hawaii and Wisconsin. “I have won more votes and won more states than Senator Obama. All the independent analyses break in my direction. A lot of the key states that we have to win, I win those states.” um.... Obama: 33 states won Clinton: 19 states won More Hillary math. Yes, and what about the 38 states before Feb. 20?
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But, on the bright side, Hillary picked up Ithaca's superdelegate.
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The NYT “I’ve been closing very strongly since Feb. 20,” she said, referring to the day after Mr. Obama won Hawaii and Wisconsin. “I have won more votes and won more states than Senator Obama. All the independent analyses break in my direction. A lot of the key states that we have to win, I win those states.” um.... Obama: 33 states won Clinton: 19 states won More Hillary math. Yes, and what about the 38 states before Feb. 20? Whomod, how many states do you think make up America? 33+19+38=??? Hillary was referring to winning more states after Feb 20 I'm assuming. I think everyone knows Obama won alot of unwinnable states when it comes to a general election. It still comes down to a strong finish for Hillary that will end up probably giving her the most votes.
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And for the millionth time i have to ask
SO WHAT?
The nominee is going to be picked based on the delegate count. This isn't something new. And if we're discussing popular votes, Hillary still only can claim that if you do creative accounting.
Do you mean to tell me that not one single person in Michigan, including Detroit wanted to vote for Obama or would in a general election?
The fantasy is almost over MEM. Thank goodness.
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And for the millionth time i have to ask
SO WHAT?
The nominee is going to be picked based on the delegate count. This isn't something new. And if we're discussing popular votes, Hillary still only can claim that if you do creative accounting.
Do you mean to tell me that not one single person in Michigan, including Detroit wanted to vote for Obama or would in a general election?
The fantasy is almost over MEM. Thank goodness. So when it's Al Gore in 2000, the popular vote is everything, and even though the law is electoral votes, and Bush won, he "stole" the election according to you and the other whiners. But when it's your guy with the electoral votes, and Hillary may have beaten him in the popular vote, the electoral votes are suddenly all that matters. Love that flexible double-standard, Whomod.
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And for the millionth time i have to ask
SO WHAT?
The nominee is going to be picked based on the delegate count. This isn't something new. And if we're discussing popular votes, Hillary still only can claim that if you do creative accounting. Nothing creative about it. You count every vote from availlable totals. You don't penallize another candidate because the other one willingly took his name off the ballot. Do you mean to tell me that not one single person in Michigan, including Detroit wanted to vote for Obama or would in a general election? You can't count votes that don't exist. Sure if Obama hadn't withdrew his name there would have been votes for him. It's not Hillary's fault that he did that, nor do those Hillary votes somehow not exist. The fantasy is almost over MEM. Thank goodness. Y'know one of the bad parts of this race was that it somehow became wrong for Hillary to compete for the nomination. She was the one I picked from the start but have grown to truly admire her as she fought. Looking at the wins she racked up at the end, I wasn't the only one. She's already being referred to as the most powerful woman in politics. I also think she's just getting started. Hillary in '12!
Fair play!
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OP
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And for the millionth time i have to ask
SO WHAT?
The nominee is going to be picked based on the delegate count. This isn't something new. And if we're discussing popular votes, Hillary still only can claim that if you do creative accounting.
Do you mean to tell me that not one single person in Michigan, including Detroit wanted to vote for Obama or would in a general election?
The fantasy is almost over MEM. Thank goodness. So when it's Al Gore in 2000, the popular vote is everything, and even though the law is electoral votes, and Bush won, he "stole" the election according to you and the other whiners. But when it's your guy with the electoral votes, and Hillary may have beaten him in the popular vote, the electoral votes are suddenly all that matters. Love that flexible double-standard, Whomod. 
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in whomods defense, moveon.org hasnt really covered this....
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I wonder how he will formulate an opinion, then...?
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in whomods defense, moveon.org hasnt really covered this.... Did Bill O'Reilly tell you that?
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in whomods defense, moveon.org hasnt really covered this.... Did Bill O'Reilly tell you that? OMG!!!!!!! YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME SO YOU MUST BE AN O'REILLY WORSHIPPER!!!!!!!! HOW COULD YOU BE SO BLIND!!!!!!!! YOU SHOULD WORSHIP THE ONE AND TRUE GOD, THE SPORTSCENTER FAILURE!
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in whomods defense, moveon.org hasnt really covered this.... 
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Still focused on the 2000 election? I've said it before. Al Gore fucked up in not asking for the ENTIRE state of Florida to be recounted. Apart from that, who gives a fuck. Bush got appointed President. And since then we've all seen the fruits of that decision. Which is why most Americans are anxious for him to just go away.
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Still focused on the 2000 election? I've said it before. Al Gore fucked up in not asking for the ENTIRE state of Florida to be recounted. Apart from that, who gives a fuck. Bush got appointed President. And since then we've all seen the fruits of that decision. Which is why most Americans are anxious for him to just go away. Coming from someone who probably wanks and cries to that horrible recount movie.
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Associated Press: - Clinton appeared ready to bow to the inevitable and spare the party an even more protracted fight.
Clinton campaign chairman Terry McAuliffe said Tuesday that once Obama gets the majority of convention delegates, “I think Hillary Clinton will congratulate him and call him the nominee.”
The outcome could come by the end of the day with some choreography by the party’s superdelegates. The party insiders were lining up behind Obama at a rate that could seal the nomination once results are in from Montana and South Dakota — or even before.
Clinton, once seen as a sure bet in her historic quest to become the first female president, was still pressing the superdelegates to support her fading candidacy. But McAuliffe indicated she was not inclined to drag out a dispute over delegates from the unsanctioned Michigan primary despite feeling shortchanged by a weekend compromise by the party’s rules committee that she could still appeal to a higher level.
“I don’t think she’s going to go to the credentials committee,” he said on NBC’s “Today” show. Taking the matter to that committee would essentially extend the dispute into the convention and deny Democrats the unity they sorely want to achieve against Republican John McCain.
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It appears that Hillary's people are denying the earlier Associated Press report.
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It looks like it might be something like a sorta concession. I would imagine she probably wants to wait till after the primaries are over before totally making a decision. Same thing with the remaining undeclared superdelegates. There isn't really a rush since Obama isn't going to do his show until it times well for the news tonight anyways.
Fair play!
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Hillary Clinton could suspend her campaign after the last primaries are finished (without conceding or endorsing Obama), and still leave herself as a potential choice, if Obama's campaign should flounder.
Recent polls show Obama sagging in popularity among women and white voters in general, since the Rev Wright story broke about 2 months ago. Byron York of the National Review described Obama's campaign as "losing altitude", and that his numbers can't go much lower without his campaign completely losing the ability to win.
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